Re: AI for orgmode

[Neil Hepburn <nhepburn@ualberta.ca>]

Hi All

I've just caught wind of this thread but I thought I would share my own very recent experiences as a newbie in org-mode and my experiences may help shed some light on things.

Anyhow, I am quite new to org-mode (as in the last two or three weeks). I'm also sort of new to emacs. I've used it occasionally over the years but only recently started using it extensively because of ESS and AucTeX. So, I am by no means an emacs expert --- I know how to start it and use some of its tools but configuring it is not something I can claim to know anything about. 

I stumbled across org-mode when I did a google search for GTD and came across a couple of blogs and sites that talked about it. Each of them provided snippets of their .emacs files and so that's where I started. On several occasions I was stumped by a configuration issue and tried looking in the on-line manual but didn't really get anywhere. It wasn't until I tried using mobileorg that I started to develop a better understanding of things. I was having trouble getting mobileorg to work and Richard Moreland provided several key bits of information and it on that basis that I started to piece things together.

In reflecting on that experience and looking back at the manual, the manual makes perfect sense -- for someone more knowledgeable about emacs and lisp in general.  However, to an emacs novice it seems to assume a greater level of background knowledge than what may be reasonable. 

However, that said, trying to "dumb-down" the manual so that emacs novices are better served would likely do a disservice to experienced emacs users -- they would have to wade through pages of minutia and really basic stuff to get to what's important for them.

I think that Darlan's idea of tutorials that start with the really basic stuff and then build up to the good stuff has much merit.  In some respects, what may be needed is a parallel documentation stream: The current documentation as it is for those more experienced and another one for newbies (Org-Mode for newbies sort of thing.)

Anyhow, just my two-cents worth.

-Neil 

PS. Now that I have gotten the hang of org-mode to be reasonably functional in it, I just cannot see myself going back to OmniFocus and iCal -- both good programs in their own right but Org-mode can just do it all so much better.

On 2010-03-19, at 6:48 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:

> I strongly agree with "just start simple". The manual is very good, but it
> is better when you are looking for something specific. One of the best
> things in org is that it is very flexible and you can use it in the way you
> want, but in the beginning I didn't know "how I should use it" or "how I
> want to use it". One thing that helped me was seeing the setup of power
> users. This allowed me to quickly see what org could do and how it could be
> done. Only after that I found "the best way to use org-mode" for me.
> 
> But the problem is that I could only find "power users setups". Maybe some
> tutorial that builds a setup like that from scratch would be good. The
> tutorial could be broken in parts where each part adds something to the
> previous one and the user could use the setup from parts he already viewed
> for some time to really "feel org-mode". Reading each part would be more
> rewarding then reading a lot of information and only after that trying
> org-mode.
> 
> Darlan
> 
> 
> 2010/3/19 John Hendy <jw.hendy@gmail.com>:
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Carsten Dominik
>> <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello,
>> 
>> <beginning removed>
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel who was
>>>> seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate with Emacs
>>>> since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp applications).
>>>> He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately he
>>>> could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so he had
>>>> to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since that is
>>>> his job.
>>>> 
>>>> Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
>>>> gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years. but I
>>>> could understand the frustration.
>>> 
>>> I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the startup
>>> pain in a clever way.
>>> 
>>> - Carsten
>>> 
>> 
>> I just started using org-mode and emacs this week. I looked around a couple
>> of months ago for a task manager and found a lot of posts on planner and
>> org-mode but was turned off by the apparently steep learning curve. I think
>> the word 'piecemeal' seems to come up a lot in people's learning tendencies.
>> For example, when looking a Sacha Chua's blogs about org-mode, seeing her
>> code to do what I thought was 'one simple thing' was completely revolting...
>> not because I didn't think it was awesome or desirable, but because it made
>> me feel like I would never understand or learn to ever be where her and
>> other users have gotten themselves after months and years of use.
>> 
>> 'Nuff blabber. Some practical ideas to add to the discussion:
>> 
>> - Perhaps include an extremely brief topic about Emacs in the org-mode
>> material. I realize one can get over to Emacs and read that, too, but as
>> someone who picked up Emacs specifically for org-mode, it would have helped
>> to just know some basics:
>> --- As done already, it's great to have the info about 'get emacs, then
>> install org-mode and activate it like this'. I've used Linux for about 4
>> years and am familiar enough to get Emacs... just not run it!
>> --- Open your first org-mode file with C-x C-f; now type in a location and
>> file_name.org to create an org-mode file
>> --- To save your file while you work, press C-x C-s
>> 
>> - Maybe make some kind of uber-beginner documentation? The manual is plainly
>> awesome... but it could have a section solely for brand-spanking new
>> beginners who might get overwhelmed at trying to remember all the C-this
>> M-that stuff... What about making the commands into hierarchical levels.
>> Example:
>> --- Take the 2.1 Outlines section
>> --- What about simply leaving it as covering the headlines,
>> unordered/ordered lists, and some basic structure editing at the top of the
>> section? Cover asterisks, M-arrows to move headlines and [pro/de]mote, etc.
>> --- Include all the advanced commands in a section afterward?
>> 
>> - Or, as an alternative idea, just have a set of beginner documentation.
>> Intentionally make it limited. Specify that arrows work fine (for now)
>> instead of overwhelming them with C-c C-n and the rest?
>> 
>> - Perhaps have a suggestion for beginner migration to org-mode? I would have
>> loved to know:
>> --- I eventually figured out myself that 1) I thought Emacs in general and
>> org-mode in specific were worthwhile investments of my time and 2) that
>> trying to learn Emacs and org-mode were gong to be really hard and I was not
>> sure that it was a feasible given my work and family life.
>> --- What I ended up thinking to myself was simply that I would just start
>> simple: just take daily work notes in outline format with org-mode. Postpone
>> learning all the todo functionality, the tasks and agenda views, exporting
>> (other than the quick C-c C-e b command even though I don't know how to keep
>> that darned buffer from opening with the html... oh well, C-x 0), etc.
>> 
>> - In closing... I think beginners should have some message tailored to them
>> to help them with whatever they are transitioning from or whatever led them
>> to consider org-mode in the first place. Some, like me, are blank slates
>> with respect to Emacs and need a way to:
>> --- Be informed of some extreme Emacs basics just to avoid sitting and
>> staring at the opening screen and not having a clue what to do next
>> --- Not feel like they have to be walking keyboard shortcut encyclopedias...
>> at first
>> --- Be encouraged to find a way to even just play in org-mode a little at a
>> time to get started. Get people outlining and exporting to something useful
>> in the first day and I think more will stick around to realize the full
>> depth of what org-mode can do.
>> 
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
> 
> "SDR4all, a new way of teaching telecommunications: http://www.sdr4all.com/
> 
> 
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