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* pdf screen reader accessibility?
@ 2015-04-07  7:49 Jude DaShiell
  2015-04-07  8:12 ` Rasmus
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Jude DaShiell @ 2015-04-07  7:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Let's try this with a slightly better url.
http://webstandards.sonoma-county.org/content.aspx?sid=1014&id=1123#Content
My point is blind people that go down the emacs route when learning linux 
get introduced to org-mode as part of that process.  If they colaborate 
with other blind emacs users on a job that requires them to use pdf files 
as colaboration documents, are those blind emacs and org-mode users going 
to be able to read each other's official documents and have management 
that required the use of pdf documents in the first place also able to 
read those documents?
I take it there's no problem using adobe reader on windows to read an 
org-exported pdf file.  I may have to use windows and adobe reader on 
windows and find an org-mode pdf-export file and do a full accessibility 
check on it with windows before this question gets answered.  Thanks for 
your time and interest.



-- Twitter: JudeDaShiell

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: pdf screen reader accessibility?
  2015-04-07  7:49 pdf screen reader accessibility? Jude DaShiell
@ 2015-04-07  8:12 ` Rasmus
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Rasmus @ 2015-04-07  8:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Hi,

Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> writes:

> Let's try this with a slightly better url.
> http://webstandards.sonoma-county.org/content.aspx?sid=1014&id=1123#Content

From the above url

>    Title field: Enter a meaningful name for the document.

Use #+TITLE.


>     Author field

Use #+AUTHOR.

>     Subject field

Use #+DESCRIPTION

> Set the appropriate language

Use #+LANGUAGE

> "Add Tags to Document" tool 

Use #+KEYWORDS, I guess?

> Correct All Issues from Add Tags Report – All issues listed in the
> Accessibility section of the Add Tags Report must be corrected to make
> the file accessible.

I don't know what this is.

> Manually Tag – If you need to manually tag a section of a PDF page, use
> the TouchUp Reading Order Tool.

Not possible.

> Tagging PDF Content as a Table

I don't know what this is, and there's no text

> [More stuff about manual stuff]

> Step 5 - The Accessibility Statement

Feel free to do so.  You could customize org-latex-title-command.

> Step 6 - Add Descriptive Text to Images

Not possible ATM but you can add captions.  If a LaTeX package exists for
this, alttext could be added to images.

> Verify and Correct the Reading Order
> Verify Accessibility

I don't know how to do this.

> Optimization and Compatibility

There's a LaTeX options for optimization, I think, but it is not on by
default, but you could add it to org-latex-default-packages.

> Redact Personal and Private Information

See how to add metadata in the top of the file.

Hope it helps,
Rasmus


-- 
Send from my Emacs

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: pdf screen reader accessibility?
  2015-04-08 20:27             ` Rasmus
@ 2015-04-08 21:48               ` Nick Dokos
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Nick Dokos @ 2015-04-08 21:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes:

> Hi,
>
> Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=PDF/UA As far as I can tell, support
>>>>for this from LaTeX is still very much a work in progress, but there is
>>>>an accessibility.sty package that has made a start. Here is a recent SO
>>>>discussion:
>>>>http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/124291/revisiting-producing-structured-pdfs-from-latex
>>>>>> >> Thanks those are interesting reads.  Based on the SO question it
>>>>seems >> that the best way to go about this ATM is either adding >>
>>>>"\pdfinterwordspaceon", meta-accessibility, and cmap packages to the >>
>>>>preamble via #+LATEX_HEADER or org-latex-packages or use Context.  Org
>>>>>> does not have a Context backend.  The (meta-)accessibility package
>>>>does >> not seem to be on CTAN.  >> > > It is available on Andy
>>>>Clifton's github page: > >
>>>>https://github.com/AndyClifton/AccessibleMetaClass
>
> I don't think we should add default packages that are not on CTAN as they
> cannot easily be installed.
>

I agree - I just wanted to make sure that people on this thread who
might want it, can find it easily.

AFAICT, the original accessibility.sty is from 2007: Babett
Schalitz wrote it as part of her "Diplomarbeit". I cannot even find
the original access.tex from which docstrip produces accessibility.sty.
I hope that Andy Clifton might be able to push and get it into CTAN,
but until that time, the only thing one can do is download it from
his github repo and use it through local mechanisms.

Nick

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: pdf screen reader accessibility?
  2015-04-08 20:22           ` Nick Dokos
@ 2015-04-08 20:27             ` Rasmus
  2015-04-08 21:48               ` Nick Dokos
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Rasmus @ 2015-04-08 20:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Hi,

Nick Dokos <ndokos@gmail.com> writes:

>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=PDF/UA As far as I can tell, support
>>>for this from LaTeX is still very much a work in progress, but there is
>>>an accessibility.sty package that has made a start. Here is a recent SO
>>>discussion:
>>>http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/124291/revisiting-producing-structured-pdfs-from-latex
>>>>> >> Thanks those are interesting reads.  Based on the SO question it
>>>seems >> that the best way to go about this ATM is either adding >>
>>>"\pdfinterwordspaceon", meta-accessibility, and cmap packages to the >>
>>>preamble via #+LATEX_HEADER or org-latex-packages or use Context.  Org
>>>>> does not have a Context backend.  The (meta-)accessibility package
>>>does >> not seem to be on CTAN.  >> > > It is available on Andy
>>>Clifton's github page: > >
>>>https://github.com/AndyClifton/AccessibleMetaClass

I don't think we should add default packages that are not on CTAN as they
cannot easily be installed.

—Rasmus

-- 
Send from my Emacs

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: pdf screen reader accessibility?
  2015-04-08 18:48         ` Rasmus
@ 2015-04-08 20:22           ` Nick Dokos
  2015-04-08 20:27             ` Rasmus
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Nick Dokos @ 2015-04-08 20:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes:


> William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=PDF/UA
>>
>> As far as I can tell, support for this from LaTeX is still very much a work
>> in progress, but there is an accessibility.sty package that has made a
>> start. Here is a recent SO discussion:
>>
>> http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/124291/revisiting-producing-structured-pdfs-from-latex
>
> Thanks those are interesting reads.  Based on the SO question it seems
> that the best way to go about this ATM is either adding
> "\pdfinterwordspaceon", meta-accessibility, and cmap packages to the
> preamble via #+LATEX_HEADER or org-latex-packages or use Context.  Org
> does not have a Context backend.  The (meta-)accessibility package does
> not seem to be on CTAN.
>

It is available on Andy Clifton's github page:

      https://github.com/AndyClifton/AccessibleMetaClass

Nick

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: pdf screen reader accessibility?
  2015-04-08 18:22       ` William Henney
@ 2015-04-08 18:48         ` Rasmus
  2015-04-08 20:22           ` Nick Dokos
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Rasmus @ 2015-04-08 18:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: whenney; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi,

William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> writes:

>> >>> http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products.html
>> >>> is a good place to start.
>> >>
>> >> It's a list of a bunch of software packages of which most are not (i)
>> free
>> >> in any meaning of the word; and (ii) supported on GNU/Linux.
>> >
>> > So what?  IIUC, the OP wants to have something similar using Emacs and
>> > (maybe) free (in a usual sense, or in FSF sense) software.  Isn't it
>> > a valid request?
>>
>> Of course it is, but OP is referring to features of some software that I
>> don't have access to, so how am I supposed to make sense of it?  I'm not
>> going to (i) install a new OS; and (ii) buy/torrent software to understand
>> and test a feature in named software.
>>
>> If there's a standard I'm eager to hear about it.
>>
>>
> I believe the relevant standard is PDF/UA
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=PDF/UA
>
> As far as I can tell, support for this from LaTeX is still very much a work
> in progress, but there is an accessibility.sty package that has made a
> start. Here is a recent SO discussion:
>
> http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/124291/revisiting-producing-structured-pdfs-from-latex

Thanks those are interesting reads.  Based on the SO question it seems
that the best way to go about this ATM is either adding
"\pdfinterwordspaceon", meta-accessibility, and cmap packages to the
preamble via #+LATEX_HEADER or org-latex-packages or use Context.  Org
does not have a Context backend.  The (meta-)accessibility package does
not seem to be on CTAN.

I don't think Org can do more to get 'tagged pdfs' via ox-latex until
better LaTeX solutions exist or until ox-context.el exists.

When exporting a pdf via Libreoffice there's an option for tagged pdf (via
File → Export as PDF → General).  Is that a suitable solution in this
case?

Thanks,
Rasmus

-- 
Send from my Emacs

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: pdf screen reader accessibility?
  2015-04-06 13:19     ` Rasmus
@ 2015-04-08 18:22       ` William Henney
  2015-04-08 18:48         ` Rasmus
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: William Henney @ 2015-04-08 18:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Rasmus; +Cc: emacs-org

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1515 bytes --]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 7:19 AM, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> wrote:

> Marcin Borkowski <mbork@wmi.amu.edu.pl> writes:
>
> > On 2015-04-06, at 13:40, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> wrote:
> >
> >> Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products.html
> >>> is a good place to start.
> >>
> >> It's a list of a bunch of software packages of which most are not (i)
> free
> >> in any meaning of the word; and (ii) supported on GNU/Linux.
> >
> > So what?  IIUC, the OP wants to have something similar using Emacs and
> > (maybe) free (in a usual sense, or in FSF sense) software.  Isn't it
> > a valid request?
>
> Of course it is, but OP is referring to features of some software that I
> don't have access to, so how am I supposed to make sense of it?  I'm not
> going to (i) install a new OS; and (ii) buy/torrent software to understand
> and test a feature in named software.
>
> If there's a standard I'm eager to hear about it.
>
>
I believe the relevant standard is PDF/UA

http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=PDF/UA

As far as I can tell, support for this from LaTeX is still very much a work
in progress, but there is an accessibility.sty package that has made a
start. Here is a recent SO discussion:

http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/124291/revisiting-producing-structured-pdfs-from-latex

Will


-- 

  Dr William Henney, Centro de Radioastronomía y Astrofísica,
  Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México, Campus Morelia

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: pdf screen reader accessibility?
  2015-04-06 12:39   ` Marcin Borkowski
@ 2015-04-06 13:19     ` Rasmus
  2015-04-08 18:22       ` William Henney
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Rasmus @ 2015-04-06 13:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Marcin Borkowski <mbork@wmi.amu.edu.pl> writes:

> On 2015-04-06, at 13:40, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> wrote:
>
>> Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> writes:
>>
>>> http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products.html
>>> is a good place to start.
>>
>> It's a list of a bunch of software packages of which most are not (i) free
>> in any meaning of the word; and (ii) supported on GNU/Linux.
>
> So what?  IIUC, the OP wants to have something similar using Emacs and
> (maybe) free (in a usual sense, or in FSF sense) software.  Isn't it
> a valid request?

Of course it is, but OP is referring to features of some software that I
don't have access to, so how am I supposed to make sense of it?  I'm not
going to (i) install a new OS; and (ii) buy/torrent software to understand
and test a feature in named software.

If there's a standard I'm eager to hear about it.

> Maybe it's an answer to my question below?
>
> ,----
> | > Do those files by default conform to screen reader accessibility standards 
> | > or can such files be made to conform to screen reader accessibility 
> | > standards?  Since adobe was responsible for creating pdf files Adobe has 
> | > screen reader accessibility standards on its website.
> | 
> | Could you point out these standards (direct links)?
> `----

> (No idea why the OP started a new thread, though.)  In my browser, on
> the right there are some links to general accessibility info (or so it
> seems, I didn't follow them yet).

Thanks.

>>> When a document gets written in Microsoft Word, its language is made
>>> part of that document.  If that document is later converted to a pdf
>>> file that language information is taken in by the conversion process
>>> then becomes the first component that starts to make screen reader
>>> accessibility of a pdf file possible.
>>
>> AFAIK, the language is set as part of the metadata in pdfs in 8.3 based
>> on #+LANGUAGE.  Can you test if that works for you?  If not, what will
>> needed to be changed to make it work?
>
> Quick test using
>
> #+LANGUAGE: polish
>
> or
>
> #+LANGUAGE: pl
>
> showed it didn't work.  (I didn't check the pdf file, though, only
> grepped the LaTeX source.)

Please give an example of how to specify the language, or an example of a
way to test it that can be done easily from GNU/Linux.

With emacs -q and Org 8.3, and a document with "#+LANGUAGE: da" I get:

     $> exiftool test.pdf | grep -i lang
     Language                        : Danish

—Rasmus

-- 
Send from my Emacs

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: pdf screen reader accessibility?
  2015-04-06 11:40 ` Rasmus
@ 2015-04-06 12:39   ` Marcin Borkowski
  2015-04-06 13:19     ` Rasmus
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2015-04-06 12:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode


On 2015-04-06, at 13:40, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> wrote:

> Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> writes:
>
>> http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products.html
>> is a good place to start.
>
> It's a list of a bunch of software packages of which most are not (i) free
> in any meaning of the word; and (ii) supported on GNU/Linux.

So what?  IIUC, the OP wants to have something similar using Emacs and
(maybe) free (in a usual sense, or in FSF sense) software.  Isn't it
a valid request?

> What is your point?

Maybe it's an answer to my question below?

,----
| > Do those files by default conform to screen reader accessibility standards 
| > or can such files be made to conform to screen reader accessibility 
| > standards?  Since adobe was responsible for creating pdf files Adobe has 
| > screen reader accessibility standards on its website.
| 
| Could you point out these standards (direct links)?
`----

(No idea why the OP started a new thread, though.)  In my browser, on
the right there are some links to general accessibility info (or so it
seems, I didn't follow them yet).

>> When a document gets written in Microsoft Word, its language is made
>> part of that document.  If that document is later converted to a pdf
>> file that language information is taken in by the conversion process
>> then becomes the first component that starts to make screen reader
>> accessibility of a pdf file possible.
>
> AFAIK, the language is set as part of the metadata in pdfs in 8.3 based
> on #+LANGUAGE.  Can you test if that works for you?  If not, what will
> needed to be changed to make it work?

Quick test using

#+LANGUAGE: polish

or

#+LANGUAGE: pl

showed it didn't work.  (I didn't check the pdf file, though, only
grepped the LaTeX source.)

> —Rasmus

Best,

-- 
Marcin Borkowski
http://octd.wmi.amu.edu.pl/en/Marcin_Borkowski
Faculty of Mathematics and Computer Science
Adam Mickiewicz University

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: pdf screen reader accessibility?
  2015-04-06  8:25 Jude DaShiell
@ 2015-04-06 11:40 ` Rasmus
  2015-04-06 12:39   ` Marcin Borkowski
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Rasmus @ 2015-04-06 11:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> writes:

> http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products.html
> is a good place to start.

It's a list of a bunch of software packages of which most are not (i) free
in any meaning of the word; and (ii) supported on GNU/Linux.

What is your point?

> When a document gets written in Microsoft Word, its language is made
> part of that document.  If that document is later converted to a pdf
> file that language information is taken in by the conversion process
> then becomes the first component that starts to make screen reader
> accessibility of a pdf file possible.

AFAIK, the language is set as part of the metadata in pdfs in 8.3 based
on #+LANGUAGE.  Can you test if that works for you?  If not, what will
needed to be changed to make it work?

—Rasmus

-- 
Send from my Emacs

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* pdf screen reader accessibility?
@ 2015-04-06  8:25 Jude DaShiell
  2015-04-06 11:40 ` Rasmus
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Jude DaShiell @ 2015-04-06  8:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/products.html
is a good place to start.
When a document gets written in Microsoft Word, its language is made part 
of that document.  If that document is later converted to a pdf file that 
language information is taken in by the conversion process then becomes 
the first component that starts to make screen reader accessibility of a 
pdf file possible.  Other components exist, but without that language 
attribute presence, screen reader accessibility is disabled.  Another 
major requirement is ocr scanned content pictures by themselves in pdf 
files are worthless to screen readers.  I'm using speakup over here on 
archlinux and am curious if it is now possible or some day will be 
possible for me to export to a screen reader accessible pdf file I can 
share with other screen reader users with no fear that the file won't be 
accessible.



-- Twitter: JudeDaShiell

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2015-04-08 21:48 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2015-04-07  7:49 pdf screen reader accessibility? Jude DaShiell
2015-04-07  8:12 ` Rasmus
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2015-04-06  8:25 Jude DaShiell
2015-04-06 11:40 ` Rasmus
2015-04-06 12:39   ` Marcin Borkowski
2015-04-06 13:19     ` Rasmus
2015-04-08 18:22       ` William Henney
2015-04-08 18:48         ` Rasmus
2015-04-08 20:22           ` Nick Dokos
2015-04-08 20:27             ` Rasmus
2015-04-08 21:48               ` Nick Dokos

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