* Re: A dream?
2023-04-03 13:52 Marko Schuetz-Schmuck
@ 2023-04-03 14:27 ` Rob Sargent
2023-04-03 15:11 ` indieterminacy
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Rob Sargent @ 2023-04-03 14:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
On 4/3/23 07:52, Marko Schuetz-Schmuck wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> I teach some software engineering courses and in each of them students
> work on semester-long projects in teams. So far, have let them choose
> their own tools for all the tasks (implementation language,
> documentation tools, etc.). Personally, I have been using org-mode for
> what feels like forever. I was thinking that it would be nice to have
> students use org-mode also for their project. I can see it provide so
> many features that would benefit the projects: easy links for
> e.g. traceability, tagging of requirements for categorizing, responsible
> developer,..., of course todo lists, priorities, progress tracking,
> rendering to web page, PDF,...
>
> Since these are students from a very technical background I would hope
> they would be open to this.
>
> Anyway, does anyone have any experience related to this, maybe not
> specifically related to teaching, but software engineering projects
> (with documentation of domain, requirements, project approach, progress,
> references, source code, testing, design, etc. etc. etc.)?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Marko
I predict, given that you've already allowed them to 'choose their own
tools', insisting on something as esoteric as org mode will meet much
resistance (unless of course they've already chosen emacs as their one
tool).
If you do go down that path, insist also on exactly one (1) of the
available export targets.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread* Re: A dream?
2023-04-03 13:52 Marko Schuetz-Schmuck
2023-04-03 14:27 ` Rob Sargent
@ 2023-04-03 15:11 ` indieterminacy
2023-04-03 15:16 ` George Mauer
2023-04-03 15:22 ` Martin Steffen
3 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: indieterminacy @ 2023-04-03 15:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Marko Schuetz-Schmuck; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
On 03-04-2023 15:52, Marko Schuetz-Schmuck wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> I teach some software engineering courses and in each of them students
> work on semester-long projects in teams. So far, have let them choose
> their own tools for all the tasks (implementation language,
> documentation tools, etc.). Personally, I have been using org-mode for
> what feels like forever. I was thinking that it would be nice to have
> students use org-mode also for their project. I can see it provide so
> many features that would benefit the projects: easy links for
> e.g. traceability, tagging of requirements for categorizing,
> responsible
> developer,..., of course todo lists, priorities, progress tracking,
> rendering to web page, PDF,...
>
> Since these are students from a very technical background I would hope
> they would be open to this.
>
> Anyway, does anyone have any experience related to this, maybe not
> specifically related to teaching, but software engineering projects
> (with documentation of domain, requirements, project approach,
> progress,
> references, source code, testing, design, etc. etc. etc.)?
>
Ive spent time working on making uses with Gemtext - the format that
supports the protocol, Gemini.
Here is a non orgmode example (developed with GeneNetwork), which covers
knowledge and kanban-boards,
featuring a simple parsing of a Gemtext repo - with people contributing
within different folders
https://github.com/genenetwork/gn-gemtext-threads
Its available on the CLI via Tissue (Guile).
Here is a talk going into it:
https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/tissue/
Here is is exported to html, via Skribilo:
https://issues.genenetwork.org/topics/guix-system-containers-and-how-we-use-them
That particular Gemtext file that generated that example can be found
via the blame icon (this approach works via git-blame):
https://github.com/genenetwork/gn-gemtext-threads/blame/main/topics/guix-system-containers-and-how-we-use-them.gmi
I hope that helps.
--
Jonathan McHugh
indieterminacy@libre.brussels
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: A dream?
2023-04-03 13:52 Marko Schuetz-Schmuck
2023-04-03 14:27 ` Rob Sargent
2023-04-03 15:11 ` indieterminacy
@ 2023-04-03 15:16 ` George Mauer
2023-04-15 2:16 ` Jean Louis
2023-04-03 15:22 ` Martin Steffen
3 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: George Mauer @ 2023-04-03 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1655 bytes --]
Emacs is a complex tool that itself can take a semester or more to get
productive in. I know I myself tried for years to move to it and was only
able to after learning vim bindings pretty well, and starting to use
Spacemacs. Forcing students to use emacs, much less org - especially in
this day and age where students *will* ask online, and *will* get a
response of "no one actually uses that" - will probably meet with a ton of
resistance.
On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 9:03 AM Marko Schuetz-Schmuck <MarkoSchuetz@web.de>
wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> I teach some software engineering courses and in each of them students
> work on semester-long projects in teams. So far, have let them choose
> their own tools for all the tasks (implementation language,
> documentation tools, etc.). Personally, I have been using org-mode for
> what feels like forever. I was thinking that it would be nice to have
> students use org-mode also for their project. I can see it provide so
> many features that would benefit the projects: easy links for
> e.g. traceability, tagging of requirements for categorizing, responsible
> developer,..., of course todo lists, priorities, progress tracking,
> rendering to web page, PDF,...
>
> Since these are students from a very technical background I would hope
> they would be open to this.
>
> Anyway, does anyone have any experience related to this, maybe not
> specifically related to teaching, but software engineering projects
> (with documentation of domain, requirements, project approach, progress,
> references, source code, testing, design, etc. etc. etc.)?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Marko
>
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1984 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: A dream?
2023-04-03 15:16 ` George Mauer
@ 2023-04-15 2:16 ` Jean Louis
2023-04-15 19:36 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-04-15 22:43 ` Eduardo Ochs
0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jean Louis @ 2023-04-15 2:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: George Mauer; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
* George Mauer <gmauer@gmail.com> [2023-04-03 18:17]:
> Emacs is a complex tool that itself can take a semester or more to get
> productive in. I know I myself tried for years to move to it and was only
> able to after learning vim bindings pretty well, and starting to use
> Spacemacs. Forcing students to use emacs, much less org - especially in
> this day and age where students *will* ask online, and *will* get a
> response of "no one actually uses that" - will probably meet with a ton of
> resistance.
We have got no problem to let staff members use Emacs in East
Africa. I have not get any protest yet, people are interested.
I have seen American surgeon and his brother from university totally
delighted with the usage of Emacs and "how everything works in one
program". They kept asking what is it.
Here is how to verify usability of Emacs, once you verify it, let us
know:
Usability 101: Introduction to Usability:
https://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-101-introduction-to-usability/
How Many Test Users in a Usability Study?:
https://www.nngroup.com/articles/how-many-test-users/
Usability Testing 101:
https://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-testing-101/
--
Jean
Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: A dream?
2023-04-15 2:16 ` Jean Louis
@ 2023-04-15 19:36 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-04-15 22:33 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2023-04-17 6:26 ` Jean Louis
2023-04-15 22:43 ` Eduardo Ochs
1 sibling, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Dimech @ 2023-04-15 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jean Louis, George Mauer; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
> Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 2:16 PM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: "George Mauer" <gmauer@gmail.com>
> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: A dream?
>
> * George Mauer <gmauer@gmail.com> [2023-04-03 18:17]:
> > Emacs is a complex tool that itself can take a semester or more to get
> > productive in. I know I myself tried for years to move to it and was only
> > able to after learning vim bindings pretty well, and starting to use
> > Spacemacs. Forcing students to use emacs, much less org - especially in
> > this day and age where students *will* ask online, and *will* get a
> > response of "no one actually uses that" - will probably meet with a ton of
> > resistance.
We ran it on the International Space Station. If that is the response of students,
then they are lame bro,
> We have got no problem to let staff members use Emacs in East
> Africa. I have not get any protest yet, people are interested.
>
> I have seen American surgeon and his brother from university totally
> delighted with the usage of Emacs and "how everything works in one
> program". They kept asking what is it.
>
> Here is how to verify usability of Emacs, once you verify it, let us
> know:
>
> Usability 101: Introduction to Usability:
> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-101-introduction-to-usability/
>
> How Many Test Users in a Usability Study?:
> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/how-many-test-users/
>
> Usability Testing 101:
> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-testing-101/
>
> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: A dream?
2023-04-15 19:36 ` Christopher Dimech
@ 2023-04-15 22:33 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2023-04-15 23:10 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-04-17 6:26 ` Jean Louis
1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide @ 2023-04-15 22:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Christopher Dimech; +Cc: Jean Louis, George Mauer, emacs-orgmode
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Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> We ran it on the International Space Station. If that is the response of students,
> then they are lame bro,
Is there a writeup of this? Or a talk? “Emacs on the ISS” would be a
great story to share!
Best wishes,
Arne
--
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: A dream?
2023-04-15 22:33 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2023-04-15 23:10 ` Christopher Dimech
0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Dimech @ 2023-04-15 23:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide; +Cc: Jean Louis, George Mauer, emacs-orgmode
> Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 10:33 AM
> From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>, "George Mauer" <gmauer@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: A dream?
>
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>
> > We ran it on the International Space Station. If that is the response of students,
> > then they are lame bro,
>
> Is there a writeup of this? Or a talk? “Emacs on the ISS” would be a
> great story to share!
>
> Best wishes,
> Arne
Felicitations Arne. Have not made any talks about it. But would be a good idea since
you mention it. You are at Karlsruhe, right?
> --
> Unpolitisch sein
> heißt politisch sein,
> ohne es zu merken.
> draketo.de
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: A dream?
2023-04-15 19:36 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-04-15 22:33 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2023-04-17 6:26 ` Jean Louis
1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jean Louis @ 2023-04-17 6:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Christopher Dimech; +Cc: George Mauer, emacs-orgmode
* Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> [2023-04-15 22:37]:
>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2023 at 2:16 PM
> > From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> > To: "George Mauer" <gmauer@gmail.com>
> > Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: A dream?
> >
> > * George Mauer <gmauer@gmail.com> [2023-04-03 18:17]:
> > > Emacs is a complex tool that itself can take a semester or more to get
> > > productive in. I know I myself tried for years to move to it and was only
> > > able to after learning vim bindings pretty well, and starting to use
> > > Spacemacs. Forcing students to use emacs, much less org - especially in
> > > this day and age where students *will* ask online, and *will* get a
> > > response of "no one actually uses that" - will probably meet with a ton of
> > > resistance.
>
> We ran it on the International Space Station. If that is the response of students,
> then they are lame bro,
My child of 11 years writes fantasy book using Emacs, and I did not
teach him at all how to use it, he just learned it on different
computer himself.
--
Jean
Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: A dream?
2023-04-15 2:16 ` Jean Louis
2023-04-15 19:36 ` Christopher Dimech
@ 2023-04-15 22:43 ` Eduardo Ochs
2023-04-17 6:30 ` Jean Louis
1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Eduardo Ochs @ 2023-04-15 22:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: George Mauer, emacs-orgmode
On Sat, 15 Apr 2023 at 16:19, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
>
> * George Mauer <gmauer@gmail.com> [2023-04-03 18:17]:
> > Emacs is a complex tool that itself can take a semester or more to get
> > productive in. I know I myself tried for years to move to it and was only
> > able to after learning vim bindings pretty well, and starting to use
> > Spacemacs. Forcing students to use emacs, much less org - especially in
> > this day and age where students *will* ask online, and *will* get a
> > response of "no one actually uses that" - will probably meet with a ton of
> > resistance.
>
> We have got no problem to let staff members use Emacs in East
> Africa. I have not get any protest yet, people are interested.
>
> I have seen American surgeon and his brother from university totally
> delighted with the usage of Emacs and "how everything works in one
> program". They kept asking what is it.
>
> Here is how to verify usability of Emacs, once you verify it, let us
> know:
>
> Usability 101: Introduction to Usability:
> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-101-introduction-to-usability/
>
> How Many Test Users in a Usability Study?:
> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/how-many-test-users/
>
> Usability Testing 101:
> https://www.nngroup.com/articles/usability-testing-101/
Hi Jean,
do you have a page in https://gnu.support/ explaining in detail how
you teach Emacs to beginners? It would be nice to have something like
that...
Btw, I've taught Emacs to beginners many times, but as "Emacs-the-
Lisp-environment", not as "Emacs-the-editor"... in some cases, like in
LaTeX workshops, lots of students who had never used Emacs before were
happily writing their own one-line elisp hyperlinks and defuns after
just one hour, but in some other cases my approach failed miserably...
Cheers,
Eduardo Ochs
http://anggtwu.net/#eev
http://anggtwu.net/eev-intros/find-eev-quick-intro.html
http://anggtwu.net/eev-intros/find-elisp-intro.html
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread* Re: A dream?
2023-04-15 22:43 ` Eduardo Ochs
@ 2023-04-17 6:30 ` Jean Louis
0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jean Louis @ 2023-04-17 6:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eduardo Ochs; +Cc: George Mauer, emacs-orgmode
* Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs@gmail.com> [2023-04-16 01:45]:
> do you have a page in https://gnu.support/ explaining in detail how
> you teach Emacs to beginners? It would be nice to have something like
> that...
I just tell them to do Emacs Tutorial. There is no need for page when
it is built-in.
I tell them, open Emacs and do the tutorial, then let me know. Later
we do not talk much, we just do the work.
> Btw, I've taught Emacs to beginners many times, but as "Emacs-the-
> Lisp-environment", not as "Emacs-the-editor"... in some cases, like in
> LaTeX workshops, lots of students who had never used Emacs before were
> happily writing their own one-line elisp hyperlinks and defuns after
> just one hour, but in some other cases my approach failed miserably...
Answer is simple:
(info "(eintr) Top")
You could use that as curriculum for the workshop.
--
Jean
Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: A dream?
2023-04-03 13:52 Marko Schuetz-Schmuck
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2023-04-03 15:16 ` George Mauer
@ 2023-04-03 15:22 ` Martin Steffen
3 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Martin Steffen @ 2023-04-03 15:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Marko Schuetz-Schmuck; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
Hi,
I also do some teaching, different courses, in earlier times lab
courses/project work, recently a quite large bachelor level course.
Some of the courses (like the ones mentioned) require keeping track of
many, many details (from my side), including administrational,
organizational stuff, open issues web-pages, instructions, exercizes,
deadlines, exams, grading etc).
To keep all of that under control, I use org. Also managing the masses
of students, I get a bunch of student assistents and graders that needs
also to be organized and, including a ``lead student assistent'' that
helps orchestrating the other student assistents (and the students
taking the course). For those cordinating tasks, keeping an overview,
use org (though special tasks require special other solutions. For
instance, slides are done in latex, and ultimately, information, like
exam results, have to be uploaded into official administrative tool).
Some of the student assistants actually also use org. Some master level
students (not just the assistents) in another course use org as well for
things like documentation. For courses that involve more extensive
course work I use git and seem students appreciate that github honors
org as format for simple documentation and readmes etc.
That being said, it seems that among students I have in my courses,
markdown is more popular for such simple web-compatible documentations.
Also most student assistants use md, only some do org.
For really collaborative course works (like multiple students track
stuff on a joint project or all students need to have the same
org-setup), I never imposed org as format. Org is too flexible, perhaps,
as soon as one get's into it, everyone has one's own specific style to
use various features and it's tricky to get comfortable with someone
else's style (and _forcing_ all of them to adhere to one predescribed
style probably takes away what makes org great and makes it cumbersome.)
As a general observation in courses I gave where documentation (of
features, interfaces, plans, etc) was required (but where I did not
necessarily specified the exact tool or format), the best groups were
those that wrote the documentation not for me (``gee, the lecturer wants
some documentation, it seems mandatory, let's write up something for him
who cares anyway'') but those that realized that for a successful
collaboration and project they themselves profit from cleanly stating
and writing things.
And sometimes a well-organized Todo.txt-file does the job, as long as
the people feel it's the best solution for them. Though an org-file sure
would be superior.
So I think the tricky part will be to convince some of them, that doing
org is not some weird idiosyncrasy of the teacher, but may actually be
helpful. But that's hard. If you are grown up with eclipse or whatever
for hacking, and first have to learn yourself emacs, to learn yourself
org, to ultimately see the light, that org is good for todo lists in the
course, the semester is sure over...
For projects where something like a overall and common issue-tracker for
bugs etc was required for _all_ I normally also did not rely on org (or
do-what-you want-as-long-as-its-clean-and-helpful-for-you), but on
specialized issue-trackers, in the last course, github-issues .
best, Martin
>>>>> "Marko" == Marko Schuetz-Schmuck <MarkoSchuetz@web.de> writes:
Marko> Dear All,
Marko> I teach some software engineering courses and in each of them
Marko> students work on semester-long projects in teams. So far,
Marko> have let them choose their own tools for all the tasks
Marko> (implementation language, documentation tools,
Marko> etc.). Personally, I have been using org-mode for what feels
Marko> like forever. I was thinking that it would be nice to have
Marko> students use org-mode also for their project. I can see it
Marko> provide so many features that would benefit the projects:
Marko> easy links for e.g. traceability, tagging of requirements for
Marko> categorizing, responsible developer,..., of course todo
Marko> lists, priorities, progress tracking, rendering to web page,
Marko> PDF,...
Marko> Since these are students from a very technical background I
Marko> would hope they would be open to this.
Marko> Anyway, does anyone have any experience related to this,
Marko> maybe not specifically related to teaching, but software
Marko> engineering projects (with documentation of domain,
Marko> requirements, project approach, progress, references, source
Marko> code, testing, design, etc. etc. etc.)?
Marko> Best regards,
Marko> Marko
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread