* footnote questions
@ 2009-01-24 5:38 Samuel Wales
2009-01-24 11:24 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-01-25 7:46 ` Carsten Dominik
0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Samuel Wales @ 2009-01-24 5:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
Minor questions:
Is there a way to have footnotes that have more than one paragraph?
For me, they are not recognized as footnotes.
Also, is there a way to make footnote references work when they start
in column 0? Reformatting a paragraph sometimes puts them there for
me.
Latest org release with (setf org-footnote-section nil).
Thanks.
--
For personal and corporate gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists
are knowingly causing massive suffering and 25-years-early death by
grossly corrupting science.
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: footnote questions
2009-01-24 5:38 footnote questions Samuel Wales
@ 2009-01-24 11:24 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-01-24 23:55 ` Scot Becker
2009-01-31 5:37 ` Samuel Wales
2009-01-25 7:46 ` Carsten Dominik
1 sibling, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2009-01-24 11:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
On Jan 24, 2009, at 6:38 AM, Samuel Wales wrote:
> Minor questions:
>
> Is there a way to have footnotes that have more than one paragraph?
> For me, they are not recognized as footnotes.
Yes, Footnotes in Org are single paragraph. Maybe this could be
changed, if enough people claim they need this. I never have the
need for this, and new lines can be made with "\\" at the end of
a line.
> Also, is there a way to make footnote references work when they start
> in column 0? Reformatting a paragraph sometimes puts them there for
> me.
The solution for this is to make footnote references stick to
the word before them. This also gives much better results in
HTML and LaTeX export. I would have liked to even enforce this
convention, but that would have been incompatible with
the old footnote.el behavior.
- Carsten
>
>
> Latest org release with (setf org-footnote-section nil).
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> For personal and corporate gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists
> are knowingly causing massive suffering and 25-years-early death by
> grossly corrupting science.
> http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: footnote questions
2009-01-24 11:24 ` Carsten Dominik
@ 2009-01-24 23:55 ` Scot Becker
2009-01-25 7:23 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-01-31 5:37 ` Samuel Wales
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Scot Becker @ 2009-01-24 23:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1962 bytes --]
I also would make good use of multi-paragraph footnotes. Since I my final
work is exported to LaTeX, I could insert a LaTeX footnote when needed if
support for multi-paragraph footnotes in org proves too difficult to add.
Scot
On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl>wrote:
>
> On Jan 24, 2009, at 6:38 AM, Samuel Wales wrote:
>
> Minor questions:
>>
>> Is there a way to have footnotes that have more than one paragraph?
>> For me, they are not recognized as footnotes.
>>
>
> Yes, Footnotes in Org are single paragraph. Maybe this could be
> changed, if enough people claim they need this. I never have the
> need for this, and new lines can be made with "\\" at the end of
> a line.
>
> Also, is there a way to make footnote references work when they start
>> in column 0? Reformatting a paragraph sometimes puts them there for
>> me.
>>
>
> The solution for this is to make footnote references stick to
> the word before them. This also gives much better results in
> HTML and LaTeX export. I would have liked to even enforce this
> convention, but that would have been incompatible with
> the old footnote.el behavior.
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Latest org release with (setf org-footnote-section nil).
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --
>> For personal and corporate gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists
>> are knowingly causing massive suffering and 25-years-early death by
>> grossly corrupting science.
>> http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
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Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: footnote questions
2009-01-24 23:55 ` Scot Becker
@ 2009-01-25 7:23 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-01-26 5:26 ` Scot Becker
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2009-01-25 7:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Scot Becker; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2327 bytes --]
On Jan 25, 2009, at 12:55 AM, Scot Becker wrote:
> I also would make good use of multi-paragraph footnotes. Since I my
> final work is exported to LaTeX, I could insert a LaTeX footnote
> when needed if support for multi-paragraph footnotes in org proves
> too difficult to add.
For LaTeX export, you can simply write \par to create
a new paragraph inside a footnote.
- Carsten
>
>
> Scot
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl
> > wrote:
>
> On Jan 24, 2009, at 6:38 AM, Samuel Wales wrote:
>
> Minor questions:
>
> Is there a way to have footnotes that have more than one paragraph?
> For me, they are not recognized as footnotes.
>
> Yes, Footnotes in Org are single paragraph. Maybe this could be
> changed, if enough people claim they need this. I never have the
> need for this, and new lines can be made with "\\" at the end of
> a line.
>
>
> Also, is there a way to make footnote references work when they start
> in column 0? Reformatting a paragraph sometimes puts them there for
> me.
>
> The solution for this is to make footnote references stick to
> the word before them. This also gives much better results in
> HTML and LaTeX export. I would have liked to even enforce this
> convention, but that would have been incompatible with
> the old footnote.el behavior.
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
> Latest org release with (setf org-footnote-section nil).
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> For personal and corporate gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists
> are knowingly causing massive suffering and 25-years-early death by
> grossly corrupting science.
> http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: footnote questions
2009-01-24 5:38 footnote questions Samuel Wales
2009-01-24 11:24 ` Carsten Dominik
@ 2009-01-25 7:46 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-01-25 17:58 ` Mike Newman
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2009-01-25 7:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
On Jan 24, 2009, at 6:38 AM, Samuel Wales wrote:
> Minor questions:
>
> Is there a way to have footnotes that have more than one paragraph?
> For me, they are not recognized as footnotes.
How would I format a multi-paragraph footnote in HTML?
Right now we have:
(div id="footnotes">
<h2 class="footnotes">Footnotes: </h2>
<div id="footnotes-text">
<p class="footnote">
<sup><a class="footnum" name="fn.1" href="#fnr.1">1</a></sup>
Footnote text here
</p>
</div>
</div>
I guess if someone had CSS to style footnote paragraphs specially,
inserting </p><p> somewhere inside the footnote text would
not do the right thing.....
Sebastian, do you have an idea here?
- Carsten
>
>
> Also, is there a way to make footnote references work when they start
> in column 0? Reformatting a paragraph sometimes puts them there for
> me.
>
> Latest org release with (setf org-footnote-section nil).
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> For personal and corporate gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists
> are knowingly causing massive suffering and 25-years-early death by
> grossly corrupting science.
> http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: footnote questions
2009-01-25 7:46 ` Carsten Dominik
@ 2009-01-25 17:58 ` Mike Newman
2009-01-27 14:11 ` Carsten Dominik
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Mike Newman @ 2009-01-25 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
I suggest that each footnote is placed in a <div> with class footnote,
with all footnotes nested inside a <div> with class footnotes.
--
Mike
On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 08:46:02 +0100
Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> wrote:
>
> On Jan 24, 2009, at 6:38 AM, Samuel Wales wrote:
>
> > Minor questions:
> >
> > Is there a way to have footnotes that have more than one paragraph?
> > For me, they are not recognized as footnotes.
>
> How would I format a multi-paragraph footnote in HTML?
>
> Right now we have:
>
> (div id="footnotes">
> <h2 class="footnotes">Footnotes: </h2>
> <div id="footnotes-text">
> <p class="footnote">
> <sup><a class="footnum" name="fn.1" href="#fnr.1">1</a></sup>
> Footnote text here
> </p>
> </div>
> </div>
>
>
> I guess if someone had CSS to style footnote paragraphs specially,
> inserting </p><p> somewhere inside the footnote text would
> not do the right thing.....
>
> Sebastian, do you have an idea here?
>
> - Carsten
>
>
> >
> >
> > Also, is there a way to make footnote references work when they
> > start in column 0? Reformatting a paragraph sometimes puts them
> > there for me.
> >
> > Latest org release with (setf org-footnote-section nil).
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > --
> > For personal and corporate gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis
> > denialists are knowingly causing massive suffering and
> > 25-years-early death by grossly corrupting science.
> > http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> > Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: footnote questions
2009-01-25 7:23 ` Carsten Dominik
@ 2009-01-26 5:26 ` Scot Becker
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Scot Becker @ 2009-01-26 5:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
> For LaTeX export, you can simply write \par to create
> a new paragraph inside a footnote.
Super.
Scot
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: footnote questions
2009-01-25 17:58 ` Mike Newman
@ 2009-01-27 14:11 ` Carsten Dominik
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2009-01-27 14:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mike Newman; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
For now, \par in a footnote is translated into starting a new line.
For me this is good enough, unless people give good reasons why not.
I can see that wrapping each footnote into an extra div could make
sense,
but so far I don't know anybody who wants to make use of this
extra structure element.
- Carsten
On Jan 25, 2009, at 6:58 PM, Mike Newman wrote:
> I suggest that each footnote is placed in a <div> with class footnote,
> with all footnotes nested inside a <div> with class footnotes.
>
> --
> Mike
>
>
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2009 08:46:02 +0100
> Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jan 24, 2009, at 6:38 AM, Samuel Wales wrote:
>>
>>> Minor questions:
>>>
>>> Is there a way to have footnotes that have more than one paragraph?
>>> For me, they are not recognized as footnotes.
>>
>> How would I format a multi-paragraph footnote in HTML?
>>
>> Right now we have:
>>
>> (div id="footnotes">
>> <h2 class="footnotes">Footnotes: </h2>
>> <div id="footnotes-text">
>> <p class="footnote">
>> <sup><a class="footnum" name="fn.1" href="#fnr.1">1</a></sup>
>> Footnote text here
>> </p>
>> </div>
>> </div>
>>
>>
>> I guess if someone had CSS to style footnote paragraphs specially,
>> inserting </p><p> somewhere inside the footnote text would
>> not do the right thing.....
>>
>> Sebastian, do you have an idea here?
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, is there a way to make footnote references work when they
>>> start in column 0? Reformatting a paragraph sometimes puts them
>>> there for me.
>>>
>>> Latest org release with (setf org-footnote-section nil).
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> --
>>> For personal and corporate gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis
>>> denialists are knowingly causing massive suffering and
>>> 25-years-early death by grossly corrupting science.
>>> http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: footnote questions
2009-01-24 11:24 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-01-24 23:55 ` Scot Becker
@ 2009-01-31 5:37 ` Samuel Wales
2009-01-31 16:38 ` Carsten Dominik
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Samuel Wales @ 2009-01-31 5:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
Hi Carsten,
\\ would work OK for me, but perhaps there is a solution even without
it. Useful because \\ does not fill correctly, in my filladapt setup,
at least.
I am likely to use footnotes in one of 2 ways: the document is the
body of a single entry, in which case I want footnotes at the end of
that, or the document is the whole org file.
I tried the former, and it of course does not insert "Footnotes:".
However, if it did, perhaps it would be easier to code having more
than one paragraph.
This is, for me, not a big issue at all. Just a suggestion that might work.
By the way, I found that sorting footnotes had the effect of not
sorting them fully (at least when there is one foothnote that was
deleted; have not narrowed down) and also moving footnotes in other
parts of the org file. When I am using footnotes in one part of an
org file, I would want other parts not to be affected.
So perhaps a variable can control this behavior. Perhaps by
unoverloading org-footnote-section?
Again not a huge issue, just a suggestion.
Thanks for the tips.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: footnote questions
2009-01-31 5:37 ` Samuel Wales
@ 2009-01-31 16:38 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-02-01 2:26 ` Samuel Wales
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2009-01-31 16:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
On Jan 31, 2009, at 6:37 AM, Samuel Wales wrote:
> Hi Carsten,
>
> \\ would work OK for me, but perhaps there is a solution even without
> it. Useful because \\ does not fill correctly, in my filladapt setup,
> at least.
Hi Samuel,
maybe you missed this in a different message: The best is to
use "\par", this will also work when filling puts it into the middle
of a line.
> I am likely to use footnotes in one of 2 ways: the document is the
> body of a single entry, in which case I want footnotes at the end of
> that, or the document is the whole org file.
>
> I tried the former, and it of course does not insert "Footnotes:".
> However, if it did, perhaps it would be easier to code having more
> than one paragraph.
>
> This is, for me, not a big issue at all. Just a suggestion that
> might work.
>
> By the way, I found that sorting footnotes had the effect of not
> sorting them fully (at least when there is one foothnote that was
> deleted; have not narrowed down) and also moving footnotes in other
> parts of the org file. When I am using footnotes in one part of an
> org file, I would want other parts not to be affected.
>
> So perhaps a variable can control this behavior. Perhaps by
> unoverloading org-footnote-section?
Can you create an example to illustrate the problem?
- Carsten
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: footnote questions
2009-01-31 16:38 ` Carsten Dominik
@ 2009-02-01 2:26 ` Samuel Wales
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Samuel Wales @ 2009-02-01 2:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 09:38, Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> wrote:
> Can you create an example to illustrate the problem?
This test case illustrates some issues with footnotes (apparent bugs,
things to watch out for when making future changes, and desirable
features that Carsten might or might not want to implement). To test,
place on "hmm" and c-u c-c c-c s.
1) loses text, deleting it altogether (document 2).
2) tiny inconsistency: when org-return-follows-link is
true, RET on definition takes you to ref, but places
point so that RET again does not get you back.
(possibly intended behavior.)
3) does not ignore comments when linting (org inserts
error).
4) sort order is wrong if you do take comments into
account.
5) moves comments (document 2)
6) does not keep separate documents separate
(org-footnote-section is nil because we want them
separate)
- moves definitions from one part of outline tree to
another (note move from document 3). this is the most
disconcerting, and feels to me like a bug. perhaps
the intent was for all org files to be considered to
be documents.
- this variable should perhaps be un-overloaded to allow
a footnotes section per node.
- perhaps then the paragraph problem can be easily
solved as a side-effect
7) does not renumber numbered references for the author's
sake (fn:6 before fn:3 in source)
8) does not renumber for ascii output (fn:1 was deleted but
is not replaced in ascii output)
9) does not replace \par with a blank line in ascii output
10) does not let the author separate paragraphs in defs and
refill without the paragraphs being merged for the
author (i.e. blank lines would be nice)
11) requires attachment to word to avoid refilling causing
it to seem like a definition (fn:5) -- this one is
possibly fixed! Mentioning just in case it is not.
Hope I didn't introduce any rtfm bugs here. Also hope gmail didn't
introduce transport bugs. These are not major issues for me
personally.
Hope it helps.
Thanks.
* top
*** another completely separate document -- 3
[1] hi, i am in document 3
\par
this is another paragraph, but you can't
refill it because the author will see it merged. i'm told
the exported text will be ok. but it is not.
\\
another way suggested earlier, same result. exported text
is ok.
dear mr. brown:
oh, here's a footnote def without a ref that i wanted to
keep around:
*** a document -- 1
dear mr. smith:
fn:1 has been deleted
#[fn:2]this is a comment of a previous footnote definition.
#(author deleted ref)
sadfkjn k jthis n klsjan skdljfn akljsdn fklajnsdfklajns
[fn:5]
this[fn:6] is a test[fn:3] of footnote sorting. recursive
definitions seem to work, so not testing them here.
[fn:3] hmm
[fn:6] after a bunch of deletions, i got here
[fn:5] is something that might be filled to be on the first
column if not attached to a word
*** a completely separate document -- 2
dear mr. jones:
#[3] text.
with manual footnotes[1].
this does, sometimes, happen[2]
[1] not out of order
\par
#[1] text. here is a comment on this
#footnote. this gets deleted when sorting. that feels like
#a bug, even if it isn't.
#here is a comment, placed by an unsuspecting user who
#doesn't know the rules[5]. it gets moved upon sorting.
#arguably, the user should be more careful. (though
#blank-separated paragraphs would be better if possible.)
#and an even more intransigent user[6]. it gets moved also.
[2] more
--
For personal and corporate gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists
are knowingly causing massive suffering and 25-years-early death by
grossly corrupting science.
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-02-01 2:26 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2009-01-24 5:38 footnote questions Samuel Wales
2009-01-24 11:24 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-01-24 23:55 ` Scot Becker
2009-01-25 7:23 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-01-26 5:26 ` Scot Becker
2009-01-31 5:37 ` Samuel Wales
2009-01-31 16:38 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-02-01 2:26 ` Samuel Wales
2009-01-25 7:46 ` Carsten Dominik
2009-01-25 17:58 ` Mike Newman
2009-01-27 14:11 ` Carsten Dominik
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