Trimming quotes

Trimming quotes

[James Harkins]

Just a reminder to be kind to list members who are receiving digests and TRIM 
QUOTED MATERIAL.

Recently: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/63982

48 lines of new content vs 1123 lines of quotes, for a whopping signal-to-noise 
ratio of 4.27%. Scrolling isn't *that* much fun...

I realize subsequent posts in that thread were trimmed, so it may be just a one-
off oversight for these posters. But, it happens a lot, on several lists that I 
read, often enough that it's become a pet peeve.

Thanks.
hjh

Re: Trimming quotes

[Thomas S. Dye]

Hi James,

James Harkins <jamshark70@gmail.com> writes:

> Just a reminder to be kind to list members who are receiving digests and TRIM 
> QUOTED MATERIAL.
>
> Recently: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/63982

That's me!  I want to be kind.

> 48 lines of new content vs 1123 lines of quotes, for a whopping signal-to-noise 
> ratio of 4.27%. Scrolling isn't *that* much fun...

Sometimes the new part is noisy, too :)

Can you point me to trimming guidelines for digest readers?

All the best,
Tom

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: Trimming quotes

[James Harkins]

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On Dec 29, 2012 11:23 PM, "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
> Can you point me to trimming guidelines for digest readers?

I don't know where to find published guidelines, but this is how I try to
handle it:

- Quote just enough to capture the gist of what you're replying to. (As
here -- I'm answering a specific question, so I quote the question and trim
out the rest.) Sometimes that calls for just a couple of lines, or it might
need a longer chunk (of a code example, say). The thread I pointed to would
have needed some longer quotes.

- Quotes from messages earlier than the one you're directly answering
should be avoided, but if you need material from an older message to get
the gist, keep it really really short. (E.g., if you're quoting a long code
snip from the previous message, there is no need to include the same code
snip in higher quote levels.)

- Avoid top-posting. Top-posting allows you to ignore the amount of quoted
material beyond the mail editor window's lower boundary. You have no idea
if it's 30, 50, 200 or over 1000 lines. (I know some have reasons to prefer
top-posting and I don't want to reopen that debate, but it seems a valid
observation that excessively long quotes usually come with top-posted
replies. So an alternate way to say it is: If you really want to top-post,
please also review the entire contents for redundancy before sending.)

hjh

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Re: Trimming quotes

[Thomas S. Dye]

James Harkins <jamshark70@gmail.com> writes:

> On Dec 29, 2012 11:23 PM, "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
>> Can you point me to trimming guidelines for digest readers?
>
> I don't know where to find published guidelines

As penance for my often low signal to noise ratio ;) and a small token
of my appreciation for the Org community and its product, I've drafted a
description of the mailing list for Worg, which AFAICT lacked one: 
http://orgmode.org/worg/org-mailing-list.html

I've tried to capture the gist of what's been discussed here, but I'm
certain it could be improved. Please feel free to make changes.

Happy New Year!
Tom

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: Trimming quotes

[Bastien]

Hi Thomas,

tsd@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye) writes:

> As penance for my often low signal to noise ratio ;) and a small token
> of my appreciation for the Org community and its product, I've drafted a
> description of the mailing list for Worg, which AFAICT lacked one: 
> http://orgmode.org/worg/org-mailing-list.html

Thanks!  And a happy new year too :)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Trimming quotes

[Ben Finney]

tsd@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye) writes:

> Can you point me to trimming guidelines for digest readers?

In brief: Don't respond at all to a digest message.

Instead, respond to the actual message you want to respond to; that way,
your response will include correct fields in the header to preserve the
thread of discussion.

So, treat the digest message as a one-way channel. If you think you
might ever respond, turn off digest mode and respond to individual
messages.

-- 
 \      “A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order |
  `\     will lose both, and deserve neither.” —Thomas Jefferson, in a |
_o__)                                                letter to Madison |
Ben Finney

Re: Trimming quotes

[Nick Dokos]

Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> wrote:

> tsd@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye) writes:
> 
> > Can you point me to trimming guidelines for digest readers?
> 
> In brief: Don't respond at all to a digest message.
> 
> Instead, respond to the actual message you want to respond to; that way,
> your response will include correct fields in the header to preserve the
> thread of discussion.
> 
> So, treat the digest message as a one-way channel. If you think you
> might ever respond, turn off digest mode and respond to individual
> messages.
> 

Tom did not respond to a digest message. He responded to an ordinary
message on the list, one that was already bloated with untrimmed
content, so the new comments in his response were a tiny fraction of the
total. That in itself is somewhat unpleasant although tolerable, but
James Harkins pointed out that for somebody reading the list in digest
form, such messages cause some hardship.

Nick

PS. FWIW, my guidelines are to trim as much as possible. I include the
question(s) that I respond to and insert my answers inline.  I try to
include enough context so that somebody reading just that piece of mail
can make (at least some) sense of the questions and the answers. And I
delete any part that I'm not directly commenting on.

Re: Trimming quotes

[Ian Barton]

On 30/12/12 05:01, Nick Dokos wrote:

> PS. FWIW, my guidelines are to trim as much as possible. I include the
> question(s) that I respond to and insert my answers inline.  I try to
> include enough context so that somebody reading just that piece of mail
> can make (at least some) sense of the questions and the answers. And I
> delete any part that I'm not directly commenting on.
>
>
>

I agree with most of what Nick said. However, it's nice if you find a 
thread on something like gmane that you can get all the information in 
one message, so you don't have to hunt up and down the thread. So I like 
to see:

* Original problem
** Quoted stuff showing whats been suggested and if it failed the reasons.
** Final solution and other suggestions

In summary I would just like to look at the last message in a thread to 
gather all the relevant information.

Ian.

Re: Trimming quotes

[Ben Finney]

Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:

> Ben Finney <ben+emacs@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>
> > tsd@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye) writes:
> > 
> > > Can you point me to trimming guidelines for digest readers?
> > 
> > In brief: Don't respond at all to a digest message.
> > 
> > Instead, […]
>
> Tom did not respond to a digest message.

Indeed; I didn't intend to imply otherwise. I was responding to Tom's
request for guidelines on how to trim quotes in a reply when one is
receiving the list digest.

-- 
 \      “[I]t is impossible for anyone to begin to learn that which he |
  `\                thinks he already knows.” —Epictetus, _Discourses_ |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney