Disqus commenting system tested on Worg

Disqus commenting system tested on Worg

[Bastien]

Hi all,

I created a disqus area for Worg comments.

See what it looks like on this page:

  http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-spreadsheet-intro.html

If you want to add comments on a Worg page, see the code in

  worg/org-spreadsheet-intro.org

I don't think having comments for all Worg pages is a good idea, but
perhaps it's nice having those on some tutorials and personal pages.

Comments are pre-approved with an akismet anti-spam filter on.  
I will administer this for now, and see if this is useful.

Enjoy!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Disqus commenting system tested on Worg

[John Hendy]

Cool! Great idea and thanks for paving the way,
John

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 2:33 AM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I created a disqus area for Worg comments.
>
> See what it looks like on this page:
>
>  http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-spreadsheet-intro.html
>
> If you want to add comments on a Worg page, see the code in
>
>  worg/org-spreadsheet-intro.org
>
> I don't think having comments for all Worg pages is a good idea, but
> perhaps it's nice having those on some tutorials and personal pages.
>
> Comments are pre-approved with an akismet anti-spam filter on.
> I will administer this for now, and see if this is useful.
>
> Enjoy!
>
> --
>  Bastien
>

Re: Disqus commenting system tested on Worg

[Bastien]

John Hendy <jw.hendy@gmail.com> writes:

> Cool! Great idea and thanks for paving the way,

Thanks.

The question now is: on what Worg pages should we have this 
comment system?

For now, I let any worger decide about this -- we are at an
experimental stage.

As for me, I tend to think comments are more useful on blog-like
pages, standalone-hacks pages, rather than on reference-like docs 
and tutorials.

Anyway, let's see how it evolves.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Disqus commenting system tested on Worg

[John Hendy]

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On Apr 7, 2012 4:28 AM, "Bastien" <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> John Hendy <jw.hendy@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Cool! Great idea and thanks for paving the way,
>
> Thanks.
>
> The question now is: on what Worg pages should we have this
> comment system?
>

True. And how to balance the mailing list vs disqus... While thw mailing
list is great, sometimes for the life of me I can't find a discussion I
know exists. If it were attached to a Worg page it would just be there
instead of having to remember the specific syntax to google.

Or should disqus comments be more like wiki discussions? Only for
commenting on the page itself. Definitely neat; as you said, we'll have to
see how it evolves!

Thanks again,
John

> For now, I let any worger decide about this -- we are at an
> experimental stage.
>
> As for me, I tend to think comments are more useful on blog-like
> pages, standalone-hacks pages, rather than on reference-like docs
> and tutorials.
>
> Anyway, let's see how it evolves.
>
> --
>  Bastien

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Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful (was: Disqus commenting system tested on Worg)

[Karl Voit]

* John Hendy <jw.hendy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Apr 7, 2012 4:28 AM, "Bastien" <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> The question now is: on what Worg pages should we have this
>> comment system?
>
> True. And how to balance the mailing list vs disqus... While thw mailing
> list is great, sometimes for the life of me I can't find a discussion I
> know exists. If it were attached to a Worg page it would just be there
> instead of having to remember the specific syntax to google.

Oh I'd like to warn here: disqus is a private commercial company
that wants to make money.

Their strategy can (and will) change from one day to the other.

They can not guarantee that the API, focus of service,
long-time-data-preservation, ... does not change.

Mailinglists - though currently handled by gmane which is also a
company - are a standard that is independent from any company. You
can extract the complete archive if you want and host it somewhere
else. No fuzz here.

Disqus offers export to XML (AFAIR) but where could you import it as
an alternative hosting service?

I consider services as *disqus better than no discussion at all* but
it is *nonpermanent* information. It can disappear from one day to
the other[1]. I do like to see disqus comments on Worg-pages to give
non-Worgers the possibility to interact with the Worg-community.

But remember: any information (only) posted to disqus is lost in the
long run. I'd like to bet on that. BTDT. :-)

Therefore: Any *important* information contained in disqus comments
have to be written to the Worg-pages (or the Mailinglist) as well.


I beg you not to shift discussions from ML to disqus and to continue
posting to the mailinglist. Since ML is a well structured and well
backup-able communication channel that is way better future-proof
than the neat features of disqus.

Imagine there would not be any Org-mode ML-archive[2] at all ...


Besides that: I personally prefer using mailinglists with my news
reader than with my email client. With gmane I do have the choice.
With disqus, I do have to use a web frontend I do not like.
Things like following threads, scoring for people or topics,
filtering, composing (in Emacs or vim), is *much* better outside of
Web forums or services like disqus.

> Or should disqus comments be more like wiki discussions? Only for
> commenting on the page itself. Definitely neat; as you said, we'll have to
> see how it evolves!

  1. Who can obviate shutdown and/or bankruptcy of disqus.com?
  2. http://news.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode
-- 
Karl Voit

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Achim Gratz]

Am 08.04.2012 13:43, schrieb Karl Voit:

> Mailinglists - though currently handled by gmane which is also a
> company - are a standard that is independent from any company. You
> can extract the complete archive if you want and host it somewhere
> else. No fuzz here.

Gmane is not a company:
http://gmane.org/about.php

Besides, the mailing list isn't "run" in any way by Gmane.


-- 
Achim.

(on the road :-)

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Bastien]

Achim Gratz <Stromeko@Nexgo.DE> writes:

> Am 08.04.2012 13:43, schrieb Karl Voit:
>
>> Mailinglists - though currently handled by gmane which is also a
>> company - are a standard that is independent from any company. You
>> can extract the complete archive if you want and host it somewhere
>> else. No fuzz here.
>
> Gmane is not a company:
> http://gmane.org/about.php
>
> Besides, the mailing list isn't "run" in any way by Gmane.

Exactly.  The mailing list is run by the GNU project and hosted
on the GNU servers.  We owe a lot to GNU.  And we owe a lot to
Lars for services like Gmane and Gwene.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Karl Voit]

* Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> Achim Gratz <Stromeko@Nexgo.DE> writes:
>
>> Gmane is not a company:
>> http://gmane.org/about.php
>>
>> Besides, the mailing list isn't "run" in any way by Gmane.
>
> Exactly.  The mailing list is run by the GNU project and hosted
> on the GNU servers.  We owe a lot to GNU.  And we owe a lot to
> Lars for services like Gmane and Gwene.

Even more better! :-)

Thanks for all that excellent service!

-- 
Karl Voit

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful (was: Disqus commenting system tested on Worg)

[Brian van den Broek]

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On 8 Apr 2012 13:44, "Karl Voit"

<snip>

> Oh I'd like to warn here: disqus is a private commercial company
> that wants to make money.
>
> Their strategy can (and will) change from one day to the other.

An enthusiastic +1 from this largely lurking list member.

Best,

Brian vdB

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Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Kyle Sexton]

Brian van den Broek <brian.van.den.broek@gmail.com> writes:

> On 8 Apr 2012 13:44, "Karl Voit"
>
> <snip>
>
>> Oh I'd like to warn here: disqus is a private commercial company
>> that wants to make money.
>>
>> Their strategy can (and will) change from one day to the other.
>
> An enthusiastic +1 from this largely lurking list member.
>

Some other options could be:

- Roll our own commenting system (a quick github search found
  https://github.com/phusion/juvia)
- Setup automatic backups of comments using the disqus API,
  http://docs.disqus.com/developers/export/

I can search around and setup a commenting engine server and try to
integrate it into worg like disqus, but unless it's an official server
it's not much better.  If random server someone sets up suddenly
disappears it's the same as disqus changing their business model.  I
guess maybe a server with automatic comment exporting to git or
something?  Or org-maintainer admin access to server?  Both?

-- 
Kyle Sexton

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Bastien]

Hi Kyle,

Kyle Sexton <ks@mocker.org> writes:

> Some other options could be:
>
> - Roll our own commenting system (a quick github search found
>   https://github.com/phusion/juvia)
> - Setup automatic backups of comments using the disqus API,
>   http://docs.disqus.com/developers/export/

Thanks for the link.

> I can search around and setup a commenting engine server and try to
> integrate it into worg like disqus, but unless it's an official server
> it's not much better.  If random server someone sets up suddenly
> disappears it's the same as disqus changing their business model.  I
> guess maybe a server with automatic comment exporting to git or
> something?  Or org-maintainer admin access to server?  Both?

Maybe first setup an instance on your server so that we can test
it.  Then if people prefer this solution and Jason is okay to work
with you on installing it on orgmode.org, let's do this.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Kyle Sexton]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

>
> Maybe first setup an instance on your server so that we can test
> it.  Then if people prefer this solution and Jason is okay to work
> with you on installing it on orgmode.org, let's do this.
>

Ok, I'll setup an instance to let people play with and see if it's a
worthwhile endeavor.  We can go from there if people actually use/like
it. :)

-- 
Kyle Sexton

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Eric Schulte]

Thanks to Google Summer of Code and to Thorsten's Bugpile project we
should have an interactive web front-end to Org-mode files by the end of
the summer.  Perhaps we can delay the addition of comments to Worg until
this project is complete and then we can implement comments entirely
using Emacs and Org-mode.

Best,

-- 
Eric Schulte
http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte/

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Christian Moe]

That was my thought, too. Managing comments as Org items would be pretty cool.

Christian

Eric Schulte <eric.schulte@gmx.com> wrote:

>Thanks to Google Summer of Code and to Thorsten's Bugpile project we
>should have an interactive web front-end to Org-mode files by the end
>of
>the summer.  Perhaps we can delay the addition of comments to Worg
>until
>this project is complete and then we can implement comments entirely
>using Emacs and Org-mode.
>
>Best,
>
>--
>Eric Schulte
>http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte/

---

Sent from mobile.
Please excuse my brevity.

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Thorsten Jolitz]

Christian Moe <mail@christianmoe.com> writes:

> That was my thought, too. Managing comments as Org items would be
> pretty cool.
>
> Christian
>
> Eric Schulte <eric.schulte@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>>Thanks to Google Summer of Code and to Thorsten's Bugpile project we
>>should have an interactive web front-end to Org-mode files by the end
>>of
>>the summer. Perhaps we can delay the addition of comments to Worg
>>until
>>this project is complete and then we can implement comments entirely
>>using Emacs and Org-mode.

iOrg will be the ultimate Disqus killer (hopefully ;)

-- 
cheers,
Thorsten

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Bastien]

Thorsten Jolitz <tjolitz@googlemail.com> writes:

> iOrg will be the ultimate Disqus killer (hopefully ;)

No doubt!

In the meantime, I'm still interested in testing Kyle's solution
-- not necessarily for Org, but for the fun of testing it!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Bastien]

Hi all,

there is no plan for changing the role and usage of the mailing 
list.  This role and usage are in *our* hands.

The idea behind a lightweight commenting system is not to split 
discussion areas, but to gather non-permanent feedback, to help 
spot small typos, etc.

If worgers think comments should not be an a page, let's simply 
unplug disqus on that page.  If some Worger wants comments on his 
page, I think it's better for him to use a centralized system.

If zero useful comment comes out during the next few months, 
let's just remove this.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Samuel Wales]

Long shot: is making worg more wiki-like practical?

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

Worg = Ikiwiki + Org? (was Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful)

[Jambunathan K]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> Long shot: is making worg more wiki-like practical?

Worg = Ikiwiki + Org?

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-12/msg00431.html

It wouldn't be a bad idea to ask Ikiwiki folks to support Org-mode
natively.  I dropped a note to them a few weeks ago, btw.
-- 

Re: Worg = Ikiwiki + Org? (was Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful)

[sam kleinman]

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On Wed, Apr 11, 2012 at 03:10:33AM +0530, Jambunathan K wrote:
> Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Long shot: is making worg more wiki-like practical?
>
> Worg = Ikiwiki + Org?
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2011-12/msg00431.html
>
> It wouldn't be a bad idea to ask Ikiwiki folks to support Org-mode
> natively.  I dropped a note to them a few weeks ago, btw.
> --

I'm a quasi-active user of Ikiwiki, so will opine without invitation on
the subject:

There is a way to parse org-files using the org perl module (which may
have been written for this purpose in ikiwiki. Getting this setup
wouldn't be hard and I could pretty easily get this running/setup (and
I'd be willing to host it.)

The major limitation with using non-markdown text in Ikiwiki is that
ikiwiki is built with the assumption that html can be injected into the
_source_ material before the markup processor runs, and the markup
processor will ignore the html. (This is how the wiki links work in
ikiwiki.)

Now it's possible to run ikiwiki without the link plugin, to disable
this behavior, but then you're left without much of a wiki. I'm not sure
what other kinds of generated content is broken if you can't inject
HTML, but I'd guess most of it.

Once you start cutting I think you basically end up with a web-based
editor, and a half decent incremental rebuild system. (but only half
decent.) Therefore, if having Worg built using org-mode syntax/files is
important to you, the current solution or some variant thereon is
probably the best bet...

Cheers,
sam

--
Sam Kleinman (tychoish):
 - garen@tychoish.com
 - tychoish <http://tychoish.com/>
 "don't get it right, get it written" -- james thurber

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Re: Worg = Ikiwiki + Org? (was Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful)

[Bastien]

Hi Sam,

thanks for the feedback.

sam kleinman <sam@tychoish.com> writes:

> Therefore, if having Worg built using org-mode syntax/files is
> important to you, the current solution or some variant thereon is
> probably the best bet...

Yes, having Worg built using org-mode files *is* important.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Usage of disqus instead of mailinglist considered harmful

[Steinar Bang]

>>>>> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at>:

> Mailinglists - though currently handled by gmane which is also a
> company -

Gmane isn't a company and does not handle the org mailing list(s).

Gmane is one man that gets donated server location, old servers, and
network hosting from his employer.

And gmane is an email<->NNTP gateway that also works as a searchable
archive accessible with NNTP and HTTP.