Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github

["Bradley M. Kuhn" <bkuhn@ebb.org>]

> "Bradley M. Kuhn" <bkuhn@ebb.org> writes:
> > I generally recommend PayPal to projects that want to minimize
> > proprietary Javascript because you cn often make it all the way through a
> > PayPal transaction (if you already have a PayPal account with a credit
> > card attached and you're in the USA) with Javascript fully turned off.

Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Could you elaborate a bit why you consider PayPal better than Librepay
> (Stripe)?

Note that Librepay isn't a payment processor; it's a fundraising site that is
a consumer (rather than provider) of payment processing.  Underneath,
Librepay uses PayPal and/or Stripe (and maybe other payment processors, but I
think those are the primary two, and possibly the only two, that Librepay
supports).

In my work at Software Freedom Conservancy (and at other charities before
it), I've evaluated and keep good tabs on how much proprietary software users
are required to install (usually in the form of proprietary Javascript) to
donate money via various payment processors.  It *is* possible to get all the
way through a PayPal donation without running proprietary Javascript once you
already have a PayPal account.  This isn't true with Stripe; every Stripe
transaction needs proprietary Javascript.

Meanwhile, PayPal definitely keeps getting worse, so their advantage over
Stripe isn't particularly strong.  I have heard from folks outside the USA
that it's absolutely impossible to do anything on PayPal without proprietary
Javascript.  When you're geolocated as being in the USA, things are slightly
better with PayPal with regard to Javascript requirements.  If you are in the
USA and have a pre-existing PayPal account, then likely you can get all the
way through the payment without running proprietary Javascript.

> I made an attempt to pay using PayPal with LibreJS extension and I was
> unable to go through even a little.  …  For Librepay, I made all the way to
> the point where I had to run Stripe.

Right, but that is merely comparing an apple martini to an apple juice box,
and pointing out the latter didn't cause the user to become intoxicated.
AFAICT, Librepay doesn't process payments without Stripe or PayPal (or some
other payment processor).  Obviously if you like the add-on services that
Librepay offers for donation solicitation/management on top of payment
processing, then by all means use that too.  But ultimately underneath,
you'll be using some payment processor.

> Now, we have removed PayPal and left Librepay option in orgmode.org, but if
> you think that PayPal should be considered better compared to Librepay
> ethically, we would like to hear your opinion.

Again, the individual (and I think it is just one person) that runs Librepay
is providing a service that some folks like, but that service isn't
processing payments, AFAIK.

If you're encourage people to donate to orgmode via Librepay, you're
encouraging them to use either PayPal or Stripe, ultimately, since they won't
finish the donation transaction without using an underlying payment
processor.  As I said, if you like the add-ons that Librepay is providing on
top of PayPal and/or Stripe, then of course enjoy them, since Librepay
*itself* (AFAIK) is licensed freely.  But, if you goal is to find a payment
processor that doesn't require users to (at least sometimes) run proprietary
Javascript, then there is basically no way to do it, unless you do the PCI
compliance yourself, which is a staffing commitment. (I discussed this in my
prior email.)

Thank you again for orgmode.  I use it every day!

  -- bkuhn