Re: Defaults for noobs, dotfiles for vets [legibility 1/6]

Re: Defaults for noobs, dotfiles for vets [legibility 1/6]

[Texas Cyberthal]

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Making a vet change a default if he decides he doesn't like a change upon
upgrading won't drive him away, but Emacs' unfriendly defaults are always
driving away noobs. Therefore Org's defaults should be noob-friendly, not
vet-friendly.

Probably vets should use legible settings as well. I became accustomed to
less-legible Org settings, and thought they were superior. But when I
cleaned up my Spacemacs config, I incidentally restored some default
legibility tweaks I'd disabled. After a brief exposure, I realized the
tweaks were superior, and that my preferences had been wrong. Changing the
defaults can overcome vet inertia and improve their UI.

> Terminals can display colors, underlines, italics, and bold text

Proposed legibility changes don't affect those font aspects.

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Re: Defaults for noobs, dotfiles for vets [legibility 1/6]

[Texas Cyberthal]

I started out arguing against my position and wound up with another blog post:

https://cyberthal-ghost.nfshost.com/emacs-needs-a-starter-zone-and-org-is-it/

Re: Defaults for noobs, dotfiles for vets [legibility 1/6]

[Adam Porter]

Texas Cyberthal <texas.cyberthal@gmail.com> writes:

> Making a vet change a default if he decides he doesn't like a change
> upon upgrading won't drive him away, but Emacs' unfriendly defaults
> are always driving away noobs. Therefore Org's defaults should be
> noob-friendly, not vet-friendly.

There is certainly room to improve some Emacs defaults; there are active
threads on emacs-devel about it now.

However, the question of to what degree Emacs should target certain
types of users is a wider one, and answering it one way or the other
doesn't necessarily support your proposed changes.

> Probably vets should use legible settings as well. I became accustomed
> to less-legible Org settings, and thought they were superior. But when
> I cleaned up my Spacemacs config, I incidentally restored some default
> legibility tweaks I'd disabled. After a brief exposure, I realized the
> tweaks were superior, and that my preferences had been wrong. Changing
> the defaults can overcome vet inertia and improve their UI.

It's neither the spirit nor practice of Emacs to tell users what
settings they should use.  Emacs exists to empower users to meet their
needs according to their preferences.

It is not for you, nor us, to decide whether certain users are suffering
from "inertia" which we ought to overcome on their behalf for the sake
of improving their UI.  That is for them to decide, not us.  This is
Emacs, not Apple, Inc.

>> Terminals can display colors, underlines, italics, and bold text
>
> Proposed legibility changes don't affect those font aspects.

I was responding to this claim of yours:

>>> Concerns about terminal impact appear to be moot, since terminal
>>> ignores most font settings.

So your claim has been clarified from "terminals ignore most font
settings" to "my proposed changes don't affect the font aspects that
terminals display."

Please quote enough of the message you're replying to so that the
conversation can be easily followed (by me, if no one else).

Defaults for noobs, dotfiles for vets [legibility 1/6]

[Texas Cyberthal]

Beginners spend a while learning to use Emacs as a simple text editor
before they're able to do anything more advanced. Their ability to
intelligently customize is minimal. Meanwhile experts have automated
dotfile deployment, so defaults are almost irrelevant to them.
Therefore defaults should be set for inexperienced users.

Inexperienced users will mostly use Org for longform prose, since they
haven't learned its database functions yet. Since Org aspires to be a
personal info manager, it should prioritize prose presentation above
code conventions.

Concerns about terminal impact appear to be moot, since terminal
ignores most font settings.

Re: Defaults for noobs, dotfiles for vets [legibility 1/6]

[Adam Porter]

Texas Cyberthal <texas.cyberthal@gmail.com> writes:

> Beginners spend a while learning to use Emacs as a simple text editor
> before they're able to do anything more advanced. Their ability to
> intelligently customize is minimal. Meanwhile experts have automated
> dotfile deployment, so defaults are almost irrelevant to them.
> Therefore defaults should be set for inexperienced users.

Defaults are relevant for all users, because if you change the default
of a setting that an "experienced user" uses the default for, he will
have to change that setting in his config.  New users come to Emacs/Org
a few at a time; changing the defaults would affect all existing users
at once.  Therefore changing the defaults should be very carefully
considered, and they should not reflect one user's beliefs about what
best suits other users.

> Inexperienced users will mostly use Org for longform prose, since they
> haven't learned its database functions yet. Since Org aspires to be a
> personal info manager, it should prioritize prose presentation above
> code conventions.

Org is not intended more for prose writing than for other uses.  We
should not prioritize one such use above others.

> Concerns about terminal impact appear to be moot, since terminal
> ignores most font settings.

Terminals can display colors, underlines, italics, and bold text, and
terminal appearance should not be ignored or de-prioritized.

Re: Defaults for noobs, dotfiles for vets [legibility 1/6]

[Bastien]

Hi Texas and Adam,

Adam Porter <adam@alphapapa.net> writes:

>> Inexperienced users will mostly use Org for longform prose, since they
>> haven't learned its database functions yet. Since Org aspires to be a
>> personal info manager, it should prioritize prose presentation above
>> code conventions.
>
> Org is not intended more for prose writing than for other uses.  We
> should not prioritize one such use above others.

I strongly agree with Adam here.

Also, defaults are for *every* users, they should not target beginners
over experienced users.

IMHO the best way to target different kinds of users is to write Emacs
themes for them.

We could advertize these themes more prominently on orgmode.org.

Would you like to write a theme, publish it and reference it on Worg?

See https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html on how to contribute
to Worg.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien