Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections

[Skip Collins]

Marcel van der Boom <marcel <at> hsdev.com> writes:
> My personal conclusion was, given proper outlining and no or very few
> assumptions about indentation preferences, it would be very difficult or
> confusing to implement.
>
> The amount of alternatives given in the thread gave me enough food for
> a while to try out if those would be sufficient. So far, the inline
> tasks (see below) seem to fit my need the best, although their use
> feels a bit like a hack to me.

It seems like a hack to me as well. I would very much like to see this
feature implemented but am not very happy with the inline task
workaround. The reason inline tasks work for this purpose is that they
allow for a termination string. This is also true for plain lists
which terminate with two blank lines by default. It would be useful
and logical to allow for a section terminator as well. This could be
done very simply with a '/' character after (or before?) the
appropriate number of asterisks, similar to the way html tags are
terminated:

* Here is a top-level heading
This text follows the top level heading.

** This is a sub-section heading
Here is some text within the sub-section.

*** The sub-section contains an even lower level
This text is part of the sub-sub-section.

**/

Now we resume the top-level section. The string "**/" terminates both
the 2nd and 3rd level sections. If a section terminates in this way,
the next highest level continues where it left off. Section
terminators would be strictly optional, sort of like </p> in html.
Would this be a sensible, feasible thing to implement? I understand
that it may cause difficulty for some exporters. But I don't think
that org features should be limited by what other formats can easily
handle, especially since there are some obvious workarounds for latex
and html.

Continuation of main section text after subsections

[Samuel Wales]

Perhaps we could have a tag like :noexport: except that it exports
body.  It does not export the header.  Optionally, it would be
replaced with a blank line.

Then he can put headers anywhere he wants.

Would this work for the OP's use case?

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections

[Thomas S. Dye]

I'm not certain, but I don't think it's possible to solve the OP's  
problem in LaTeX.

Tom

On Mar 27, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Samuel Wales wrote:

> Perhaps we could have a tag like :noexport: except that it exports
> body.  It does not export the header.  Optionally, it would be
> replaced with a blank line.
>
> Then he can put headers anywhere he wants.
>
> Would this work for the OP's use case?
>

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections

[Sébastien Vauban]

Hi,

Samuel Wales wrote:
> Perhaps we could have a tag like :noexport: except that it exports body. It
> does not export the header. Optionally, it would be replaced with a blank
> line.
>
> Then he can put headers anywhere he wants.
>
> Would this work for the OP's use case?

I really am not (yet?) convinced by the need -- as I don't really see how it
fits in LaTeX/HTML.

However, just to answer one detail point, would such a new tag globally exist,
it would have to be :ignoreheading: (it does already exist in Org-Beamer for
"anonym" columns).

Best regards,
  Seb

-- 
Sébastien Vauban

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections

[Colin Fraizer]

Was there ever a conclusion from this discussion?

I think I want something very similar to what Mr. van der Boom requested. I have outlines that contain varying amounts of text (paragraphs) and then, to avoid forgetting some task, I add a TODO item somewhere in the middle. That TODO item absorbs all the text following it until the next headline at the same or higher level.

For example, if I have an outline like

--------------
* Section 1
* Section 2
Paragraph 1
:
:
Paragraph 10
* Section 3
---------------

If I insert a TODO item after paragraph 3 and then collapse the outline, it hides paragraphs 4-10 as if they were part of that TODO item, even if they are unrelated.

I understand that this is not "proper" outline structure, but I was under the impression many people used org-mode for outlining /and/ for TODOs. ;-)

Syntax like "** END" to end the TODO (or other subtree) would, I think, do what I want. Based on my cursory look at it, I imagine one could simply change org-end-of-subtree to treat "^** END" specially (where the number of stars is the level). Normally, it would end with point at the beginning of the line "^** END" (treating as the next headline at the same or higher level) and return that as end of the tree.. However, I'd like for it to put point at the beginning of the line following that "fake" headline.

Then, you could suppress export of "^\\*+ END$".

I don't really see a reason not to do this, but perhaps I'm naively overlooking a big problem.

--Colin


-----Original Message-----
From: emacs-orgmode-bounces+orgmode=cfraizer.com@gnu.org [mailto:emacs-orgmode-bounces+orgmode=cfraizer.com@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Sébastien Vauban
Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 3:09 AM
To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: [O] Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections

Hi,

Samuel Wales wrote:
> Perhaps we could have a tag like :noexport: except that it exports 
> body. It does not export the header. Optionally, it would be replaced 
> with a blank line.
>
> Then he can put headers anywhere he wants.
>
> Would this work for the OP's use case?

I really am not (yet?) convinced by the need -- as I don't really see how it fits in LaTeX/HTML.

However, just to answer one detail point, would such a new tag globally exist, it would have to be :ignoreheading: (it does already exist in Org-Beamer for "anonym" columns).

Best regards,
  Seb

--
Sébastien Vauban

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections

[Marcel van der Boom]

On ma 18-apr-2011 11:34
"Colin Fraizer" <orgmode@cfraizer.com> wrote:

> Was there ever a conclusion from this discussion?
>
My personal conclusion was, given proper outlining and no or very few
assumptions about indentation preferences, it would be very difficult or
confusing to implement. 

The amount of alternatives given in the thread gave me enough food for
a while to try out if those would be sufficient. So far, the inline
tasks (see below) seem to fit my need the best, although their use
feels a bit like a hack to me.
 
> I think I want something very similar to what Mr. van der Boom
> requested. I have outlines that contain varying amounts of text
> (paragraphs) and then, to avoid forgetting some task, I add a TODO
> item somewhere in the middle. That TODO item absorbs all the text
> following it until the next headline at the same or higher level.

This specific functionality might be already available by using
the 'inline tasks' I mentioned above See the function
'org-inlinetask-insert-task'. 

marcel

-- 
Marcel van der Boom  -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf
HS-Development BV    -- http://www.hsdev.com
So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info
Cobra build          -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections

[Colin Fraizer]

Wow, I missed that part of the discussion, but it sounds very much like what
I want.

Thank you.

-----Original Message-----
From: emacs-orgmode-bounces+orgmode=cfraizer.com@gnu.org
[mailto:emacs-orgmode-bounces+orgmode=cfraizer.com@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
Marcel van der Boom
Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 12:17 PM
To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: [O] Continuation of main section text after subsections


On ma 18-apr-2011 11:34
"Colin Fraizer" <orgmode@cfraizer.com> wrote:

> Was there ever a conclusion from this discussion?
>
My personal conclusion was, given proper outlining and no or very few
assumptions about indentation preferences, it would be very difficult or
confusing to implement. 

The amount of alternatives given in the thread gave me enough food for a
while to try out if those would be sufficient. So far, the inline tasks (see
below) seem to fit my need the best, although their use feels a bit like a
hack to me.
 
> I think I want something very similar to what Mr. van der Boom 
> requested. I have outlines that contain varying amounts of text
> (paragraphs) and then, to avoid forgetting some task, I add a TODO 
> item somewhere in the middle. That TODO item absorbs all the text 
> following it until the next headline at the same or higher level.

This specific functionality might be already available by using the 'inline
tasks' I mentioned above See the function 'org-inlinetask-insert-task'. 

marcel

--
Marcel van der Boom  -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf
HS-Development BV    -- http://www.hsdev.com
So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info
Cobra build          -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections

[Jeff Horn]

There are interesting ways to break away from traditional document
structure using inline-tasks, which (without keywords) are really
inline "headlines" that don't break structure.

See the discussion which starts here:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/40597

It branches a bit, but you can use gmane's search to track the
discussion if you want more info.

On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Colin Fraizer <orgmode@cfraizer.com> wrote:
> Wow, I missed that part of the discussion, but it sounds very much like what
> I want.
>
> Thank you.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: emacs-orgmode-bounces+orgmode=cfraizer.com@gnu.org
> [mailto:emacs-orgmode-bounces+orgmode=cfraizer.com@gnu.org] On Behalf Of
> Marcel van der Boom
> Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 12:17 PM
> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: [O] Continuation of main section text after subsections
>
>
> On ma 18-apr-2011 11:34
> "Colin Fraizer" <orgmode@cfraizer.com> wrote:
>
>> Was there ever a conclusion from this discussion?
>>
> My personal conclusion was, given proper outlining and no or very few
> assumptions about indentation preferences, it would be very difficult or
> confusing to implement.
>
> The amount of alternatives given in the thread gave me enough food for a
> while to try out if those would be sufficient. So far, the inline tasks (see
> below) seem to fit my need the best, although their use feels a bit like a
> hack to me.
>
>> I think I want something very similar to what Mr. van der Boom
>> requested. I have outlines that contain varying amounts of text
>> (paragraphs) and then, to avoid forgetting some task, I add a TODO
>> item somewhere in the middle. That TODO item absorbs all the text
>> following it until the next headline at the same or higher level.
>
> This specific functionality might be already available by using the 'inline
> tasks' I mentioned above See the function 'org-inlinetask-insert-task'.
>
> marcel
>
> --
> Marcel van der Boom  -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf
> HS-Development BV    -- http://www.hsdev.com
> So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info
> Cobra build          -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl
>
>
>
>



-- 
Jeffrey Horn
http://www.failuretorefrain.com/jeff/

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections

[Nick Dokos]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:

> Perhaps we could have a tag like :noexport: except that it exports
> body.  It does not export the header.  Optionally, it would be
> replaced with a blank line.
> 
> Then he can put headers anywhere he wants.
> 
> Would this work for the OP's use case?
> 

My reading of it was that he wanted that to be done as he is putting
down his thoughts into the pensieve - ...err... org file I mean - so doing
it in export is too late. But I'm not the OP so maybe I've read it
wrong.

Using an imaginary EBNF spec, here's what org (and LaTeX) provides:

<tree> ::= [<text>] (<tree>)*

i.e. "a tree is some optional text followed by 0 or more trees",
whereas I think he wants:

<tree> ::= [<text>] (<tree> [text])*

I hope these are not grossly wrong, but please take them with
the appropriate grain of salt.

Nick

Re: Continuation of main section text after subsections

[Marcel van der Boom]

On zo 27-mrt-2011 18:07
Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:

> Perhaps we could have a tag like :noexport: except that it exports
> body.  It does not export the header.  Optionally, it would be
> replaced with a blank line.
> 
> Then he can put headers anywhere he wants.
> 
> Would this work for the OP's use case?

As others have already mentioned, this would indeed not solve my
issue. Once I am ready for export/publishing I'm more or less settled
on the document structure. Except for some cases, where I mark blocks
with my /noexport/ tag, I would expect the same (logical) structure in
the published document as in the source org file.

marcel

-- 
Marcel van der Boom  -- http://hsdev.com/mvdb.vcf
HS-Development BV    -- http://www.hsdev.com
So! web applications -- http://make-it-so.info
Cobra build          -- http://cobra.mrblog.nl