[accessibility] worg obscures text

[accessibility] worg obscures text

[Samuel Wales]

on this page, i cannot read the rhs of paragraphs near the top because
the menu and up home elements obscure the text.
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#keeping-local-changes-current-with-Org-mode-development
.

i use very large fonts.  i have latest esr firefox maximized to the
large monitor.  an even larger monitor is not an option.

this is probably a minor issue for me as i can probably use ublock to
completely remove those elements.  of course that would mean not
having those elements but that is ok if there is a table of contents
in teh text.  i think there is not though.  also, o that particular
patge i can scroll, read paragraph, scroll again.  so i am just
reporting so that the issue is known.  i blieve i mentioned it yers
ago but idk if it got notated.

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

A blog about science, health, human rights, and misopathy:
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

Re: [accessibility] worg obscures text

[Rudolf Adamkovič]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> so i am just reporting so that the issue is known.  i blieve i
> mentioned it yers ago but idk if it got notated.

A big +1 from me.  I struggle with this problem too.  The website
obscures its main content with the floating side-buttons, namely

- "Support via Liberapay",
- "UP",
- "HOME", and
- "Table of Contents".

I think, no chrome should ever cover the main text, no matter what font
size or screen size the user has to use.  The Emacs manual does the
right thing, for example.

Rudy
-- 
"Mathematics takes us still further from what is human into the region
of absolute necessity, to which not only the actual world, but every
possible world, must conform."
-- Bertrand Russell, 1902

Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [he/him]
Studenohorská 25
84103 Bratislava
Slovakia

Re: [accessibility] worg obscures text

[Tim Cross]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> on this page, i cannot read the rhs of paragraphs near the top because
> the menu and up home elements obscure the text.
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#keeping-local-changes-current-with-Org-mode-development
> .
>
> i use very large fonts.  i have latest esr firefox maximized to the
> large monitor.  an even larger monitor is not an option.
>
> this is probably a minor issue for me as i can probably use ublock to
> completely remove those elements.  of course that would mean not
> having those elements but that is ok if there is a table of contents
> in teh text.  i think there is not though.  also, o that particular
> patge i can scroll, read paragraph, scroll again.  so i am just
> reporting so that the issue is known.  i blieve i mentioned it yers
> ago but idk if it got notated.

I agree, that is pretty poor formatting and does not work well and will
never work well from an accessibility perspective.  

Re: [accessibility] worg obscures text

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> I agree, that is pretty poor formatting and does not work well and will
> never work well from an accessibility perspective.  

Patches are welcome! We just need someone with knowledge of html/css to
jump in and create a patch for https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg (BTW, also
see shiny new https://sr.ht/~bzg/org/).

Best,
Ihor

Re: [accessibility] worg obscures text

[Tim Cross]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I agree, that is pretty poor formatting and does not work well and will
>> never work well from an accessibility perspective.  
>
> Patches are welcome! We just need someone with knowledge of html/css to
> jump in and create a patch for https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg (BTW, also
> see shiny new https://sr.ht/~bzg/org/).
>

Sadly, it isn't that simple. You also have to understand how worg does
the publishing and that isn't easy. I just looked at the repository 

- The .emacs.el file referenced in the worg-setup.org is not available (404 error)
- The styles directory consists of a number of css files - not clear
  which one is used. (I'm guessing the .emacs.el file might tell me such
  details). 
- You also need to know about org publish and how it works, not just be
  familiar wiht html and css. 
  
As it stands now, without the .emacs.el file (which I'm assuming
contains the org-publish-project-alist variable), you cannot do much or
work out how the styles are generated/applied, so you cannot fix this. 

If the .emacs.el was either in the repo or the url referenced in the
worg-setup.org file worked, that would help. 

[BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated (was: [accessibility] worg obscures text)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

>> Patches are welcome! We just need someone with knowledge of html/css to
>> jump in and create a patch for https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg (BTW, also
>> see shiny new https://sr.ht/~bzg/org/).
>>
>
> Sadly, it isn't that simple. You also have to understand how worg does
> the publishing and that isn't easy. I just looked at the repository 
>
> - The .emacs.el file referenced in the worg-setup.org is not available
> (404 error)

Sorry. worg-setup.org is outdated. Bastien, could you update it?

The publishing is done using
https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg/tree/master/item/publish.sh
In the nutshell, it just iterates over .org files and runs html export.

> - The styles directory consists of a number of css files - not clear
>   which one is used. (I'm guessing the .emacs.el file might tell me such
>   details).

The default is /worg/style/worg.css
Alternatives are worg-zenburn.css and worg-classic.css. See the above
link.

> - You also need to know about org publish and how it works, not just be
>   familiar wiht html and css. 

Most likely, the problem is in the css files. worg.css has

/* TOC inspired by http://jashkenas.github.com/coffee-script */
    #table-of-contents {
	z-index: 1;

Hope it helps.

Best,
Ihor

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated (was: [accessibility] worg obscures text)

[Tim Cross]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> Patches are welcome! We just need someone with knowledge of html/css to
>>> jump in and create a patch for https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg (BTW, also
>>> see shiny new https://sr.ht/~bzg/org/).
>>>
>>
>> Sadly, it isn't that simple. You also have to understand how worg does
>> the publishing and that isn't easy. I just looked at the repository 
>>
>> - The .emacs.el file referenced in the worg-setup.org is not available
>> (404 error)
>
> Sorry. worg-setup.org is outdated. Bastien, could you update it?
>
> The publishing is done using
> https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg/tree/master/item/publish.sh
> In the nutshell, it just iterates over .org files and runs html export.
>
>> - The styles directory consists of a number of css files - not clear
>>   which one is used. (I'm guessing the .emacs.el file might tell me such
>>   details).
>
> The default is /worg/style/worg.css
> Alternatives are worg-zenburn.css and worg-classic.css. See the above
> link.
>
>> - You also need to know about org publish and how it works, not just be
>>   familiar wiht html and css. 
>
> Most likely, the problem is in the css files. worg.css has
>
> /* TOC inspired by http://jashkenas.github.com/coffee-script */
>     #table-of-contents {
> 	z-index: 1;
>

Yes, that does help. 

Unfortunately, I suspect it isn't a simple 'tweak' to the css to fix
this. The setting of z-index is the root cause of the issue. That
approach simply won't work in an accessible manner. Therefore, a whole
change to the presentation style is likely going to be necessary. 

A 'refresh' of the look probably isn't a bad thing. However, getting it
right and consistent is likely non-trivial. Not sure if my css skills
are up to it, but willing to have a look at it anyway. 

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated (was: [accessibility] worg obscures text)

[Timothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 662 bytes --]

Hi Tim,

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> A ’refresh’ of the look probably isn’t a bad thing. However, getting it
> right and consistent is likely non-trivial. Not sure if my css skills
> are up to it, but willing to have a look at it anyway.

A complete revamp of worg is something I’ve chatted to someone about, with ideas
of making the network of page links visible and able to be used for navigation.

Unfortunately, this chat was ~a year ago and has stalled, thank to the eternal
issue of: too many projects, not enough time.

If anybody has a spare cloning pod, that would be really handy 😉.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Bastien Guerry]

Hi Tim,

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> A 'refresh' of the look probably isn't a bad thing. However, getting it
> right and consistent is likely non-trivial. Not sure if my css skills
> are up to it, but willing to have a look at it anyway. 

Thanks in advance for looking into this!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Bastien Guerry]

Hi Ihor,

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Sorry. worg-setup.org is outdated. Bastien, could you update it?

Done, thanks for the heads up.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Tim Cross]

Bastien Guerry <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi Ihor,
>
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Sorry. worg-setup.org is outdated. Bastien, could you update it?
>
> Done, thanks for the heads up.

Thanks Bastien, that will help!

Just a couple of questions regarding all of this (really just
background and to anyone who may have the knowledge, not just Bastien)

Is there any reason we don't use a CSS framework, like bulma or
tailwind to manage the CSS? I know that using JS can be an issue, but
what about a CSS only framework with an MIT license? This would make it
*much* easier to have a site which is both responsive and looks good on
different sized displays, is accessibility compliant, works well across
different browsers and is easier to maintain while still avoiding
inclusion of JS (Ironically, I know JS a lot better than CSS!). 

I'm going to see if I can get a local copy of worg running so that I
have an environment to work with. However, one thing which occurs to me
is that it might be quite nice if we also had a dev site in addition to
the prod site. It should be possible to setujp something with CI such
that you could deploy to a 'dev' url on orgmode.org rather than the
production one. This would make testing of patches etc much easier. It
would also mean I could do the work I'm looking at, deploy to dev site,
ask for feedback on the list, review and later deploy to prod site
without affecting the prod site until we are ready. To do this, it would
be necessary to have Bastien (or someone with the necessary access)
assistance to modify server configurations (like web server config). 

Finally, Bastien and others who may have worked on worg previously, if
yuou have any notes or points which you think it would help for me to
know, please feel free to send them through directly. While I've done a
bit of HTML and CSS in the past, I've only ever used org mode for very
simple/minor HTML output and usually for my own personal consumption.
I've never taken advantage of the publishing side of org. 

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> Just a couple of questions regarding all of this (really just
> background and to anyone who may have the knowledge, not just Bastien)
>
> Is there any reason we don't use a CSS framework, like bulma or
> tailwind to manage the CSS? I know that using JS can be an issue, but
> what about a CSS only framework with an MIT license? This would make it
> *much* easier to have a site which is both responsive and looks good on
> different sized displays, is accessibility compliant, works well across
> different browsers and is easier to maintain while still avoiding
> inclusion of JS (Ironically, I know JS a lot better than CSS!). 

I suspect that the real reason is lack of experience with CSS and JS.
Also, we don't really want a high entry barrier for contributors (but
then, again, we haven't had many contributors to WORG html side over the
years anyway, AFAIK).

Note that JS is not strictly disallowed (e.g. see
https://orgmode.org/worg/code/org-info-js/). It's just that we have an
FSF requirement to have a website viewable from non-JS browsers.
However, even this requirement may not be enforced given sufficient
justification. Only the main orgmode.org website must follow FSF
guidelines strictly (https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb). WORG
(https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg) is more lax. It may be a good idea to use
something GPL-compatible though.

> Finally, Bastien and others who may have worked on worg previously, if
> yuou have any notes or points which you think it would help for me to
> know, please feel free to send them through directly. While I've done a
> bit of HTML and CSS in the past, I've only ever used org mode for very
> simple/minor HTML output and usually for my own personal consumption.
> I've never taken advantage of the publishing side of org. 

AFAIK, worg is very simple. We just rely on ox-html to produce output
and then publish a static website. That's it.

Best,
Ihor

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Tim Cross]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Just a couple of questions regarding all of this (really just
>> background and to anyone who may have the knowledge, not just Bastien)
>>
>> Is there any reason we don't use a CSS framework, like bulma or
>> tailwind to manage the CSS? I know that using JS can be an issue, but
>> what about a CSS only framework with an MIT license? This would make it
>> *much* easier to have a site which is both responsive and looks good on
>> different sized displays, is accessibility compliant, works well across
>> different browsers and is easier to maintain while still avoiding
>> inclusion of JS (Ironically, I know JS a lot better than CSS!). 
>
> I suspect that the real reason is lack of experience with CSS and JS.
> Also, we don't really want a high entry barrier for contributors (but
> then, again, we haven't had many contributors to WORG html side over the
> years anyway, AFAIK).

I actually think a basic framework, such as Bulma or Tailwind, would
lower the barrier. CSS is possibly the most challenging part of doing
decent web pages - especially if you want responsive pages which work
well on large and small screens and with respect to accessibility. 

>
> Note that JS is not strictly disallowed (e.g. see
> https://orgmode.org/worg/code/org-info-js/). It's just that we have an
> FSF requirement to have a website viewable from non-JS browsers.
> However, even this requirement may not be enforced given sufficient
> justification. Only the main orgmode.org website must follow FSF
> guidelines strictly (https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb). WORG
> (https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg) is more lax. It may be a good idea to use
> something GPL-compatible though.
>

I don't plan to use JS. THis site doesn't need JS support. More
importantly, while older CSS frameworks, such as bootstrap, relied on JS
as part of the framework, due to advances in CSS, more modern CSS
frameworks like Bulma and Tailwind are able to achieve similar
functionality just using CSS. 

These frameworks are easy to learn - far easier than learning CSS.
Anyone who knows CSS will have no problem using them and anyone who
doesn't will find using the framework much easier than having to learn
'raw' CSS, which has some pretty narly dark corners which take
considerable effort to master. 

>> Finally, Bastien and others who may have worked on worg previously, if
>> yuou have any notes or points which you think it would help for me to
>> know, please feel free to send them through directly. While I've done a
>> bit of HTML and CSS in the past, I've only ever used org mode for very
>> simple/minor HTML output and usually for my own personal consumption.
>> I've never taken advantage of the publishing side of org. 
>
> AFAIK, worg is very simple. We just rely on ox-html to produce output
> and then publish a static website. That's it.
>

The thing about a static web site is that it needs good navigation to
make it useable and easy to explore (which I think is critical with
something like worg). To achieve that, there needs to be some
'knowledge' about the pages and their relationship to each other - it
isn't quite as simple as just having a lot of static pages on a server. 

First step is to get a working local copy so that I have something to
work with. AFter that and a bit of exploring, I should have a better
understanding and idea how to go forward. 

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

>> I suspect that the real reason is lack of experience with CSS and JS.
>> Also, we don't really want a high entry barrier for contributors (but
>> then, again, we haven't had many contributors to WORG html side over the
>> years anyway, AFAIK).
>
> I actually think a basic framework, such as Bulma or Tailwind, would
> lower the barrier. CSS is possibly the most challenging part of doing
> decent web pages - especially if you want responsive pages which work
> well on large and small screens and with respect to accessibility. 
> ....
> These frameworks are easy to learn - far easier than learning CSS.
> Anyone who knows CSS will have no problem using them and anyone who
> doesn't will find using the framework much easier than having to learn
> 'raw' CSS, which has some pretty narly dark corners which take
> considerable effort to master. 

Then, it sounds like a good path forward.

>> AFAIK, worg is very simple. We just rely on ox-html to produce output
>> and then publish a static website. That's it.
>>
>
> The thing about a static web site is that it needs good navigation to
> make it useable and easy to explore (which I think is critical with
> something like worg). To achieve that, there needs to be some
> 'knowledge' about the pages and their relationship to each other - it
> isn't quite as simple as just having a lot of static pages on a server. 

Agree. WORG navigation is not ideal (to say the least).
Note that we can leverage index functionality of ox-publish. See
https://orgmode.org/manual/Site-map.html#Site-map
and
https://orgmode.org/manual/Generating-an-index.html

Also, you may find https://github.com/oyvindstegard/ox-tagfilter-js
useful.

> First step is to get a working local copy so that I have something to
> work with. AFter that and a bit of exploring, I should have a better
> understanding and idea how to go forward. 

Last time I tried to achive this, I had to tweak the css paths a bit,
edited paths in publish scirpt, and got everything working locally.
(without running server)

Best,
Ihor

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Tim Cross]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

>>
>> The thing about a static web site is that it needs good navigation to
>> make it useable and easy to explore (which I think is critical with
>> something like worg). To achieve that, there needs to be some
>> 'knowledge' about the pages and their relationship to each other - it
>> isn't quite as simple as just having a lot of static pages on a server. 
>
> Agree. WORG navigation is not ideal (to say the least).
> Note that we can leverage index functionality of ox-publish. See
> https://orgmode.org/manual/Site-map.html#Site-map
> and
> https://orgmode.org/manual/Generating-an-index.html
>

Yes, just started looking at that to see what I could leverage off. 

> Also, you may find https://github.com/oyvindstegard/ox-tagfilter-js
> useful.
>

Thanks, I will check it out. 

My general feeling is that I may be able to make matters better and as
long as I stick to core functionality as much as possible, am unlikely
to make it significantly worse!

>> First step is to get a working local copy so that I have something to
>> work with. AFter that and a bit of exploring, I should have a better
>> understanding and idea how to go forward. 
>
> Last time I tried to achive this, I had to tweak the css paths a bit,
> edited paths in publish scirpt, and got everything working locally.
> (without running server)
>

Yes, pretty much what I expected. Luckily, I already have a server setup
which I use for other development work, so that isn't an issue. Have
noticed some things which look like they will need tweaking (I also hope
to document some of this and where possible isolate things so that
others can clone and run easier as well - might help with contributions
and probably won't hurt. 

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

>> Also, you may find https://github.com/oyvindstegard/ox-tagfilter-js
>> useful.
>>
>
> Thanks, I will check it out. 

At an occation, FYI another two interesting ideas I noted a while back:
https://staticman.net/
https://isso-comments.de/docs/

(that is: comment support for WORG)

Best,
Ihor

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Tim Cross]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> Also, you may find https://github.com/oyvindstegard/ox-tagfilter-js
>>> useful.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks, I will check it out. 
>
> At an occation, FYI another two interesting ideas I noted a while back:
> https://staticman.net/
> https://isso-comments.de/docs/
>
> (that is: comment support for WORG)
>

Will certainly have a look. However, I'm a little wary about adding
comment support. Problem is, once you add comment support, you need to
then monitor the comments for inappropriate content and spam. On some
levels, I'd rather people comment here on the list so that its in one
place. The other side of the coin is that it would be great if people
could add comments, particularly to update information relating to
examples etc. People are often more willing to leave a comment than
provide a patch. 

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

>> At an occation, FYI another two interesting ideas I noted a while back:
>> https://staticman.net/
>> https://isso-comments.de/docs/
>
> Will certainly have a look. However, I'm a little wary about adding
> comment support. Problem is, once you add comment support, you need to
> then monitor the comments for inappropriate content and spam.

The first link says that it is aiming to redirect comments to patches.
If we can somehow connect it to Org ML (or sourcehut ML -> Org ML), it
will effectively redirect comments from the website to Org ML without
breaking our usual workflows.

Best,
Ihor

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> First step is to get a working local copy so that I have something to
> work with. AFter that and a bit of exploring, I should have a better
> understanding and idea how to go forward. 

Hi Tim,

May I know if you got a chance to continue working on this?
Let us know if you need any help from us.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Tim Cross]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:

> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> First step is to get a working local copy so that I have something to
>> work with. AFter that and a bit of exploring, I should have a better
>> understanding and idea how to go forward. 
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> May I know if you got a chance to continue working on this?
> Let us know if you need any help from us.

Hi Ihor,

sorry, no real progress.

I did get a working local copy and started looking into what needed to
be done to improve things. Unfortunately, the more I understood, the
more it became obvious that simple tweaking was unlikely to consistently
improve the situation. Each little improvement I made just caused or
exposed other issues and it quickly spiralled down.

Unfortunately, other commitments then took over and I've been too busy
to focus on org stuff for some months now. Even participation in the ML
has been challenging.

A significant re-design of the worg styling is required in order to get
a presentation which both looks good and which works with respect to
accessibility requirements. I don't believe the current styles are
workable. Someone with greater CSS fu than me might do better, but from
what I could tell, the basic underlying premise for the existing styles
is flawed. I suspect it would be possible to 'fix' things, but it would
be a major style re-working. 

I would still like to get back to this, but right now, don't know where
things are likely to be in the short term. There are some job related
things which will be eitehr completed or stepped up to the next stage by
mid Feb and I may have a clearer picture by then. For now though, I have
limited resources to dedicate to org. 

Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> I would still like to get back to this, but right now, don't know where
> things are likely to be in the short term. There are some job related
> things which will be eitehr completed or stepped up to the next stage by
> mid Feb and I may have a clearer picture by then. For now though, I have
> limited resources to dedicate to org. 

No problem. I just wanted to follow up on this since around 6 months
passed. In case if you need any help.

I did not mean to pressure you.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>

[TASK] Enhance Worg HTML styling (was: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated)

[Bastien Guerry]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> A significant re-design of the worg styling is required in order to get
> a presentation which both looks good and which works with respect to
> accessibility requirements. I don't believe the current styles are
> workable. Someone with greater CSS fu than me might do better, but from
> what I could tell, the basic underlying premise for the existing styles
> is flawed. I suspect it would be possible to 'fix' things, but it would
> be a major style re-working. 

Strong +1 on working on Worg's styling.

The task may be daunting, but we can also tackle it incrementally.

From memory, orgmode.org/worg is visited by ~30k persons each month,
that 1000 persons per day.  A patch enhancing the .css will make 1000
persons happiers each day.

Who would like to help?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: [TASK] Enhance Worg HTML styling (was: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated)

[Alain.Cochard]

Bastien Guerry writes on Wed  4 Jan 2023 11:21:

 > Strong +1 on working on Worg's styling.
 > 
 > The task may be daunting, but we can also tackle it incrementally.
 > 
 > >From memory, orgmode.org/worg is visited by ~30k persons each month,
 > that 1000 persons per day.  A patch enhancing the .css will make 1000
 > persons happiers each day.

So far it was an obscure discussion for, but as a visitor of
orgmode.org/worg I now feel concerned.  What's wrong with Worg's
styling?  A specific example might be enlightening.  (Enhancement for
some can be deterioration for others.)

Regards

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Re: [TASK] Enhance Worg HTML styling (was: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated)

[Tim Cross]

Alain.Cochard@unistra.fr writes:

> Bastien Guerry writes on Wed  4 Jan 2023 11:21:
>
>  > Strong +1 on working on Worg's styling.
>  > 
>  > The task may be daunting, but we can also tackle it incrementally.
>  > 
>  > >From memory, orgmode.org/worg is visited by ~30k persons each month,
>  > that 1000 persons per day.  A patch enhancing the .css will make 1000
>  > persons happiers each day.
>
> So far it was an obscure discussion for, but as a visitor of
> orgmode.org/worg I now feel concerned.  What's wrong with Worg's
> styling?  A specific example might be enlightening.  (Enhancement for
> some can be deterioration for others.)
>

As a simple example, try increasing the font size and see what happens
to the menus. Keep in mind that some users require a very large font
(for example, I use a 26 or 28 pt font.

The current site is not good from an accessibility perspective, renders
inconsistently with different browsers, does not have consistent
keyboard navigation, arguably has inconsistent styling in some areas
etc.

If you are able to use the defaults (default font and size, default
fg/bg colors, normal 'desktop' screen, things seem ok. However, once you
need different fonts, different size text, different fg/bg colors or are
using a mobile device or assistive technologies, like a screen reader,
things rapidly degrade. There have also been numerous other issues (many
have already been addressed) such as broken links, links to data which
doesn't exist or has wrong MIME type, issues associated with file name
case etc.  There is also a fair amount of inconsistency in how pages are
presented - some seem to have good navigation support while others do
not, some pages seem to fit into an overall 'site map' while others seem
to be out in their own island etc. As a result, the ability to
effectively browse the site and follow 'threads' of information is often
challenging. Perhaps even more unfortunate is that sometimes, you can
come across some good information in the worg site, but finding that
same information again at a latter date is often extremely challenging. 

Re: [TASK] Enhance Worg HTML styling (was: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated)

[Alain.Cochard]

Tim Cross writes on Thu  5 Jan 2023 09:43:

 > As a simple example, try increasing the font size and see what
 > happens to the menus. Keep in mind that some users require a very
 > large font (for example, I use a 26 or 28 pt font.

OK, I understand.  (Even with default font size, I hate that the table
of contents hides some parts of the text -- I had forgotten about
that.)

 > [...] There have also been numerous other issues (many have already
 > been addressed) such as broken links, links to data which doesn't
 > exist or has wrong MIME type [...]  Perhaps even more unfortunate
 > is that sometimes, you can come across some good information in the
 > worg site, but finding that same information again at a latter date
 > is often extremely challenging.

But that's not "Org styling", right?  Or am I confused about what
"styling" means?

At any rate, I agree with your other examples, understand why the
styling (as I understand it) should be improved, and am no longer
worried about changes.  Thank you very much for your time.

-- 
EOST (École et Observatoire des Sciences de la Terre) 
ITE (Institut Terre & Environnement) | alain.cochard@unistra.fr
5 rue René Descartes   [bureau 110]  | Phone: +33 (0)3 68 85 50 44 
F-67084 Strasbourg Cedex, France     | [ slot available for rent ]

Re: [TASK] Enhance Worg HTML styling (was: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated)

[Tim Cross]

Alain.Cochard@unistra.fr writes:

> Tim Cross writes on Thu  5 Jan 2023 09:43:
>
>  > As a simple example, try increasing the font size and see what
>  > happens to the menus. Keep in mind that some users require a very
>  > large font (for example, I use a 26 or 28 pt font.
>
> OK, I understand.  (Even with default font size, I hate that the table
> of contents hides some parts of the text -- I had forgotten about
> that.)
>
>  > [...] There have also been numerous other issues (many have already
>  > been addressed) such as broken links, links to data which doesn't
>  > exist or has wrong MIME type [...]  Perhaps even more unfortunate
>  > is that sometimes, you can come across some good information in the
>  > worg site, but finding that same information again at a latter date
>  > is often extremely challenging.
>
> But that's not "Org styling", right?  Or am I confused about what
> "styling" means?
>
> At any rate, I agree with your other examples, understand why the
> styling (as I understand it) should be improved, and am no longer
> worried about changes.  Thank you very much for your time.

It isn't just about the styling - that is just one aspect and the one I
planned to start with. However, styling and presentation will also be
part of providing better links/navigation, which I think is also
necessary to make exploration and discovery easier and more consistent.
.

Re: [TASK] Enhance Worg HTML styling

[Leo Butler]

On Fri, Jan 06 2023, Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:

> Alain.Cochard@unistra.fr writes:
>
>> Tim Cross writes on Thu  5 Jan 2023 09:43:
>>
>>  > As a simple example, try increasing the font size and see what
>>  > happens to the menus. Keep in mind that some users require a very
>>  > large font (for example, I use a 26 or 28 pt font.
>>
>> OK, I understand.  (Even with default font size, I hate that the table
>> of contents hides some parts of the text -- I had forgotten about
>> that.)
>>
>>  > [...] There have also been numerous other issues (many have already
>>  > been addressed) such as broken links, links to data which doesn't
>>  > exist or has wrong MIME type [...]  Perhaps even more unfortunate
>>  > is that sometimes, you can come across some good information in the
>>  > worg site, but finding that same information again at a latter date
>>  > is often extremely challenging.
>>
>> But that's not "Org styling", right?  Or am I confused about what
>> "styling" means?
>>
>> At any rate, I agree with your other examples, understand why the
>> styling (as I understand it) should be improved, and am no longer
>> worried about changes.  Thank you very much for your time.
>
> It isn't just about the styling - that is just one aspect and the one I
> planned to start with. However, styling and presentation will also be
> part of providing better links/navigation, which I think is also
> necessary to make exploration and discovery easier and more consistent.
> .

Can you give us an example/model of a site that does these things
better? I agree with your assessment, but feel that some kind of target
is needed.

TIA,
Leo

Re: [TASK] Enhance Worg HTML styling

[Tim Cross]

Leo Butler <Leo.Butler@umanitoba.ca> writes:

> On Fri, Jan 06 2023, Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Alain.Cochard@unistra.fr writes:
>>
>>> Tim Cross writes on Thu  5 Jan 2023 09:43:
>>>
>>>  > As a simple example, try increasing the font size and see what
>>>  > happens to the menus. Keep in mind that some users require a very
>>>  > large font (for example, I use a 26 or 28 pt font.
>>>
>>> OK, I understand.  (Even with default font size, I hate that the table
>>> of contents hides some parts of the text -- I had forgotten about
>>> that.)
>>>
>>>  > [...] There have also been numerous other issues (many have already
>>>  > been addressed) such as broken links, links to data which doesn't
>>>  > exist or has wrong MIME type [...]  Perhaps even more unfortunate
>>>  > is that sometimes, you can come across some good information in the
>>>  > worg site, but finding that same information again at a latter date
>>>  > is often extremely challenging.
>>>
>>> But that's not "Org styling", right?  Or am I confused about what
>>> "styling" means?
>>>
>>> At any rate, I agree with your other examples, understand why the
>>> styling (as I understand it) should be improved, and am no longer
>>> worried about changes.  Thank you very much for your time.
>>
>> It isn't just about the styling - that is just one aspect and the one I
>> planned to start with. However, styling and presentation will also be
>> part of providing better links/navigation, which I think is also
>> necessary to make exploration and discovery easier and more consistent.
>> .
>
> Can you give us an example/model of a site that does these things
> better? I agree with your assessment, but feel that some kind of target
> is needed.
>
> TIA,
> Leo

As Bastien said, small increments is likely the way to go.

So, for an initial target, how about just having set of CSS styles which
support different screen sizes and different font sizes - one where,
unlike the current one, the page content is not obscured by the menus
and navigation buttons.

For an added bonus, a design which provides consistency and convenience
which helps with both general browsing and locating specific information
within the site would be good. 

As for an example site, I don't have anything specific in mind and have
ideas taken from various sites. Examples are of little benefit IMO - it
really just comes down to someone having the time to define a new style,
apply it to a development site (likely also on sourcehut) and then get
feedback. We don't need to over think this or get too bogged down in
design - just go for functional and see what falls out the other end.

One question I'm not sure about is whether it would be better to craft
CSS from scratch or better to adopt a CSS framework (which is
appropriately licensed) and use that. I tend to feel the latter would be
better, but others may have different opinions.

Re: [accessibility] worg obscures text

[Max Nikulin]

On 13/06/2022 09:16, Tim Cross wrote:
> If the .emacs.el was either in the repo or the url referenced in the
> worg-setup.org file worked, that would help.

Org web pages are currently generated by SourceHut CI, have a look at 
.build.yml and publish.sh (the latter is actually elisp).

Browser developer tools show the name of CSS file where some rule is 
defined.

I had an idea with "X" labeled button (hidden checkbox for no-JS 
implementation) that collapses toolbar into hamburger. However I have 
enough items in my org-related backlog.

Re: [accessibility] worg obscures text

[Tim Cross]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> on this page, i cannot read the rhs of paragraphs near the top because
> the menu and up home elements obscure the text.
> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#keeping-local-changes-current-with-Org-mode-development
> .
>
> i use very large fonts.  i have latest esr firefox maximized to the
> large monitor.  an even larger monitor is not an option.
>
> this is probably a minor issue for me as i can probably use ublock to
> completely remove those elements.  of course that would mean not
> having those elements but that is ok if there is a table of contents
> in teh text.  i think there is not though.  also, o that particular
> patge i can scroll, read paragraph, scroll again.  so i am just
> reporting so that the issue is known.  i blieve i mentioned it yers
> ago but idk if it got notated.

Something worth pointing out in case you were not aware of it is that
the worg pages are defined with alternative stylesheets. Unfortunately,
alternative stylesheet support is not well supported by browsers.
However, firefox is one that does support them and as you are a firefox
users, you may be in luck. 

From the 'view' menu, you can select the "Page style" option, which will
let you select from 1 of three provided styles - default, zenburn and
classic. 

In your case, you will likely find the classic style easier to work with
as the fonts can be scaled without some content obscuring other (it
doens't use the Z index to keep things 'on top'). 

Note that I am working on improving the look of worg and all of this
will likely change. However, it turns out it isn't as simple as a few
patches. There is quite a bit of work required to get things 'up to
spec', especially with respect to accessibility and responsiveness for
multiple screen sizes. 

Re: [accessibility] worg obscures text

[Samuel Wales]

thank you.  classic works best for me.  a tiny bit made for smaller
fonts [perhaps ragged right or 1 column would work better] but it is
completely usable and i would not mention such a nit except for your
interest.

[as an indicator of right column column width in classic page style,
with smallest legible font size during daylight, worg toc currently
takes 26 mouse pagescroll clicks to get to end from top.  toc at top
taking whole page [a 1 column design] and the items flowed but with
decent margins would take fewer clicks as that would be a bit more
width.  larger fonts would make the number of clicks more.  just fyi.]

[of the other styles, one is white bg so cannot use at night [because
i have not found a good
darkerner extension that does not require running a binary blob to
install it which i stubbornly refuse to do.  the one i use, dark
reader, does not work on some pages for some reason, and it
has other issues re blue on black and too much blue or so]; zenburn is
too bright and uncontrasty for me; and one or
two are obscuring as mentioned.  for my personal use, with my current
settings, classic is definitely good enough.  also, for some reason i
rarely go to worg.]


On 6/15/22, Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> on this page, i cannot read the rhs of paragraphs near the top because
>> the menu and up home elements obscure the text.
>> https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#keeping-local-changes-current-with-Org-mode-development
>> .
>>
>> i use very large fonts.  i have latest esr firefox maximized to the
>> large monitor.  an even larger monitor is not an option.
>>
>> this is probably a minor issue for me as i can probably use ublock to
>> completely remove those elements.  of course that would mean not
>> having those elements but that is ok if there is a table of contents
>> in teh text.  i think there is not though.  also, o that particular
>> patge i can scroll, read paragraph, scroll again.  so i am just
>> reporting so that the issue is known.  i blieve i mentioned it yers
>> ago but idk if it got notated.
>
> Something worth pointing out in case you were not aware of it is that
> the worg pages are defined with alternative stylesheets. Unfortunately,
> alternative stylesheet support is not well supported by browsers.
> However, firefox is one that does support them and as you are a firefox
> users, you may be in luck.
>
> From the 'view' menu, you can select the "Page style" option, which will
> let you select from 1 of three provided styles - default, zenburn and
> classic.
>
> In your case, you will likely find the classic style easier to work with
> as the fonts can be scaled without some content obscuring other (it
> doens't use the Z index to keep things 'on top').
>
> Note that I am working on improving the look of worg and all of this
> will likely change. However, it turns out it isn't as simple as a few
> patches. There is quite a bit of work required to get things 'up to
> spec', especially with respect to accessibility and responsiveness for
> multiple screen sizes.
>
>


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