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[2001:44b8:31f2:bb00:abdd:3e66:b252:3ca9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a184-20020a6390c1000000b00405186ce64esm6058981pge.81.2022.06.13.18.24.04 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 13 Jun 2022 18:24:05 -0700 (PDT) References: <8735g9wgtj.fsf@gmail.com> <87mteh4d0b.fsf@localhost> <87tu8puwlt.fsf@gmail.com> <87a6ah3zaq.fsf@localhost> <87y1y0od9e.fsf@gnu.org> <87czfcupve.fsf@gmail.com> <877d5km57w.fsf@localhost> User-agent: mu4e 1.7.27; emacs 28.1.50 From: Tim Cross To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: Bastien Guerry , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [BUG] worg-setup.org is outdated Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2022 11:08:33 +1000 In-reply-to: <877d5km57w.fsf@localhost> Message-ID: <87o7yw11h8.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1655169918; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=O826m30VlrgEmQld2UD6gPYM+6ayL+ZjkbPNBeNNYy8=; b=hpkT7+Fu32wQeC8j2WC5fpzJwpiv52peQEDN4j3bDcEBp6EkspF/cAVYwIka7fJHw05J+U jNEUqPM9gyBO8/7vuGjZhA4sGhbl6twkx0s3kpVjCQ53/R5QGgTx2P6G9dHIwusN91B0Y+ zBEBlesXqSIAnRVX2/3YNnQlIn0cwIzW7vV3h4Vkhij3LU935UGrrNS9817+AyPFu6qY6o m3zmvJz/bEVqL7yGDUNn0IZCYxEE7Wwccs/0mjR+zfML090CBHAPediGFVdkGG5SjdVvyY YFN6iCQkXn5TKZOT8Q12xqDpnGOn4EizbSm4G9qRWzW/z5pGFjwTFdqYyW8xVA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1655169918; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Iix+Ovky7Y/e0qadQ5XXGFRiDmlVhMJJeXpDm+PKLLnB4njX8cVYPejsZnepDBLye5PVCm ePWfLpbvw4f9AgiITQzK+yqZe7Dqt6tCIlgyqb+KdyJZgNbjz0TStZoHFHFyzqf0ZNN6q4 Hnsk5UzWFpIPaoVKWLBsrI4C6UpjQajSjkrjHV0TXxxsl7VSUJuBGKfYjlre1id0hY/sds ANqBzcDRELHr9at+i+eXcXR5iK34xYHQY3f4/D9yl7WcS+l3d2oZ5BTVXBiDjT4nY2hOco wpz/U2bizNPeyziT0EHojcfreZp2w06tG/z/JwwIh4rwJTmyxeISQLO3ujFCUg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=m6RSPdCK; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.49 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=m6RSPdCK; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: DAED3364AF X-Spam-Score: -2.49 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: MW4PomKDZujX Ihor Radchenko writes: > Tim Cross writes: > >> Just a couple of questions regarding all of this (really just >> background and to anyone who may have the knowledge, not just Bastien) >> >> Is there any reason we don't use a CSS framework, like bulma or >> tailwind to manage the CSS? I know that using JS can be an issue, but >> what about a CSS only framework with an MIT license? This would make it >> *much* easier to have a site which is both responsive and looks good on >> different sized displays, is accessibility compliant, works well across >> different browsers and is easier to maintain while still avoiding >> inclusion of JS (Ironically, I know JS a lot better than CSS!). > > I suspect that the real reason is lack of experience with CSS and JS. > Also, we don't really want a high entry barrier for contributors (but > then, again, we haven't had many contributors to WORG html side over the > years anyway, AFAIK). I actually think a basic framework, such as Bulma or Tailwind, would lower the barrier. CSS is possibly the most challenging part of doing decent web pages - especially if you want responsive pages which work well on large and small screens and with respect to accessibility. > > Note that JS is not strictly disallowed (e.g. see > https://orgmode.org/worg/code/org-info-js/). It's just that we have an > FSF requirement to have a website viewable from non-JS browsers. > However, even this requirement may not be enforced given sufficient > justification. Only the main orgmode.org website must follow FSF > guidelines strictly (https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/orgweb). WORG > (https://git.sr.ht/~bzg/worg) is more lax. It may be a good idea to use > something GPL-compatible though. > I don't plan to use JS. THis site doesn't need JS support. More importantly, while older CSS frameworks, such as bootstrap, relied on JS as part of the framework, due to advances in CSS, more modern CSS frameworks like Bulma and Tailwind are able to achieve similar functionality just using CSS. These frameworks are easy to learn - far easier than learning CSS. Anyone who knows CSS will have no problem using them and anyone who doesn't will find using the framework much easier than having to learn 'raw' CSS, which has some pretty narly dark corners which take considerable effort to master. >> Finally, Bastien and others who may have worked on worg previously, if >> yuou have any notes or points which you think it would help for me to >> know, please feel free to send them through directly. While I've done a >> bit of HTML and CSS in the past, I've only ever used org mode for very >> simple/minor HTML output and usually for my own personal consumption. >> I've never taken advantage of the publishing side of org. > > AFAIK, worg is very simple. We just rely on ox-html to produce output > and then publish a static website. That's it. > The thing about a static web site is that it needs good navigation to make it useable and easy to explore (which I think is critical with something like worg). To achieve that, there needs to be some 'knowledge' about the pages and their relationship to each other - it isn't quite as simple as just having a lot of static pages on a server. First step is to get a working local copy so that I have something to work with. AFter that and a bit of exploring, I should have a better understanding and idea how to go forward.