org and microsoft exchange

org and microsoft exchange

[Skip Collins]

I was thinking of trying to get org and microsoft exchange talking to
each other via soap-client.el and exchange web services (ews).
Ultimately it would be nice to have a route into the corporate world
of exchange, outlook, entourage, and blackberry where so many of us
are forced to live.

My first goal is to link org TODOs to exchange tasks in some
simplistic way that allows two-way syncing.

If that proves feasible, perhaps calendar items could be next.

Does this sound useful? If anyone with elisp or web services
programming experience is interested in lending a hand, I am sure to
need some help.

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Eric S Fraga]

Skip Collins <skip.collins@gmail.com> writes:

> I was thinking of trying to get org and microsoft exchange talking to
> each other via soap-client.el and exchange web services (ews).
> Ultimately it would be nice to have a route into the corporate world
> of exchange, outlook, entourage, and blackberry where so many of us
> are forced to live.
>
> My first goal is to link org TODOs to exchange tasks in some
> simplistic way that allows two-way syncing.
>
> If that proves feasible, perhaps calendar items could be next.
>
> Does this sound useful? If anyone with elisp or web services
> programming experience is interested in lending a hand, I am sure to
> need some help.

+1.

My institution is moving to MS Live, whatever that means (I really am
completely ignorant of the MS world, for better or for worse).  I think
this is somehow related to Exchange etc. so any type of integration with
org would be greatly helpful for me!  At first, all I care about is one
way transfer, from the MS world to org but obviously two way syncing
would be good.

In my case, it's more about calendar events than tasks.  My tasks are
typically for my information only but meetings etc involve multiple
people.

I can try to help in due course.  We haven't moved to the MS system yet
so I cannot yet say how much I will be able to contribute.  Keep me in
the loop!
-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.5 (release_7.5.409.g4f3a3)

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Holger Wenzel]

Hi,
>
>> I was thinking of trying to get org and microsoft exchange talking to
>> each other via soap-client.el and exchange web services (ews).
>> Ultimately it would be nice to have a route into the corporate world
>> of exchange, outlook, entourage, and blackberry where so many of us
>> are forced to live.
>>
>> My first goal is to link org TODOs to exchange tasks in some
>> simplistic way that allows two-way syncing.
>>
>> If that proves feasible, perhaps calendar items could be next.
>>
>> Does this sound useful? If anyone with elisp or web services
>> programming experience is interested in lending a hand, I am sure to
>> need some help.
>
> +1.
>
> My institution is moving to MS Live, whatever that means (I really am
> completely ignorant of the MS world, for better or for worse).  I think
> this is somehow related to Exchange etc. so any type of integration with
> org would be greatly helpful for me!  At first, all I care about is one
> way transfer, from the MS world to org but obviously two way syncing
> would be good.
>
> In my case, it's more about calendar events than tasks.  My tasks are
> typically for my information only but meetings etc involve multiple
> people.
>
> I can try to help in due course.  We haven't moved to the MS system yet
> so I cannot yet say how much I will be able to contribute.  Keep me in
> the loop!


One open source project that implements a pretty impressive interface to
exchange is http://davmail.sourceforge.net 

Maybe you can get hints on how to deal with the ideosycrasies of MS
coding from there.

Unfortunately I cannot use this, and your proposed solution, since my
Exchange server is behind an RSA-Token-"secured" gateway.

I'm planning to use the org-outlook protocol 

http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/org-outlook.el

even if this means that I need to have an Outlook-instance running. 

Good luck!

Holger

Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events (was: org and microsoft exchange)

[Karl Voit]

* Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> In my case, it's more about calendar events than tasks.  My tasks are
> typically for my information only but meetings etc involve multiple
> people.

IMHO: Org-mode does *not* seem to be made for managing calendar
events that go beyond simple one-time-occurrence events. but you
*have* to support at least the same featureset of Outlook Calendar
in order to think of a (two-way-) sync mechanism to Org-mode.

Yes, there is this sexp-workaround[1] for more complex things but
quite frankly: this is not an option for the ordinary user like me
(not having that much ELISP knowledge).

And even with sexp, you can not map recurring events with
exceptions, irregular recurring events, and so forth.

For me as a relatively newbee (related to Emacs and Org-mode) it is
clear that I can not move my current calendar environment to
Org-mode. Unfortunately.

So far, I do have my old calendar setup (in JPilot/PalmOS) and
additionally my task-only-related calendar in Org-mode.

But I'd love to see an advanced and easy to use calendar environment
in Org-mode!

I love Pimlical[2] and its DateBk6 for PalmOS in terms of: easy to
use, very flexible, able to map all kinds of complex requirements,
...

  1. http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Sexp-Diary-Entries.html
  2. http://www.pimlicosoftware.com/
-- 
Karl Voit

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Skip Collins]

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Holger Wenzel
<drholgerwenzel@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Unfortunately I cannot use this, and your proposed solution, since my
> Exchange server is behind an RSA-Token-"secured" gateway.
>
> I'm planning to use the org-outlook protocol

Both outlook and org will require dealing with secured gateways.

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Jonathan Arkell]

On 20/06/11 5:53 AM, "Holger Wenzel" <drholgerwenzel@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
>I'm planning to use the org-outlook protocol
>
>http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/org-outlook.el
>
>even if this means that I need to have an Outlook-instance running.

When I was still on a windows box, I built a little Windows Scripting Host
REPL, for the express purpose of communicating with outlook.  I've since
moved to Mac, so I have not worked on it since, however, the code is
available here:

https://github.com/jonnay/wsh-repl


You could load up an instance of the wsh-repl, and send it commands
directly (it's a standard comint buffer).

Hopefully it provides some help for you guys.


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Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Eric S Fraga]

Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:

> * Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> In my case, it's more about calendar events than tasks.  My tasks are
>> typically for my information only but meetings etc involve multiple
>> people.
>
> IMHO: Org-mode does *not* seem to be made for managing calendar
> events that go beyond simple one-time-occurrence events. 

I would argue that this is not at all the case, especially if you
consider that org uses a tree hierarchy and tags so that one can group
separate entries in a variety of ways, you can clone with time shift
whole trees, etc.  Most calendar tools require you to specify all the
conditions for a particular "event" in one go whereas with org you can
have a number of different entries for the same "event"... etc.

Also, with sexp, you can manage practically anything you might like
although, of course, it does require learning a certain amount of
elisp.  Recurring events with exceptions are not a problem, for
instance.

In any case, as always with computer tools, what works for you is what
matters!  For me, org is just plainly much more suitable for my mode of
working; every other calendar system I have tried has constrained me
much more.  But that's *me*.

> but you
> *have* to support at least the same featureset of Outlook Calendar
> in order to think of a (two-way-) sync mechanism to Org-mode.

I guess this depends on what types of events you are likely to have in
the outlook calendar.  In my case, only a small feature set is likely
necessary (mostly repeating lectures and one off meetings) so a sync
should be possible.  I don't think anybody is proposing a full-blown
totally automatic sync mechanism between org and Outlook (or whatever)
that covers the union of the two products' feature sets...  insanity
lies in that direction ;-)

But I'll worry about this later this year when forced to use MS...

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.5 (release_7.5.410.gadf1)

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Philipp Haselwarter]

On 2011-06-20 07:52 UT, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:

ESF> Skip Collins <skip.collins@gmail.com> writes:

>> I was thinking of trying to get org and microsoft exchange talking to
>> each other via soap-client.el and exchange web services
>> (ews).Ultimately it would be nice to have a route into the corporate
>> world of exchange, outlook, entourage, and blackberry where so many
>> of us are forced to live.
>> 
>> My first goal is to link org TODOs to exchange tasks in some
>> simplistic way that allows two-way syncing.
>> 
>> If that proves feasible, perhaps calendar items could be next.
>> 
>> Does this sound useful?If anyone with elisp or web services
>> programming experience is interested in lending a hand, I am sure to
>> need some help.

ESF> +1.

ESF> My institution is moving to MS Live, whatever that means (I really
ESF> am completely ignorant of the MS world, for better or for worse).I
ESF> think this is somehow related to Exchange etc.so any type of
ESF> integration with org would be greatly helpful for me!At first, all
ESF> I care about is one way transfer, from the MS world to org but
ESF> obviously two way syncing would be good.

ESF> In my case, it's more about calendar events than tasks.My tasks are
ESF> typically for my information only but meetings etc involve multiple
ESF> people.

ESF> I can try to help in due course.We haven't moved to the MS system
ESF> yet so I cannot yet say how much I will be able to contribute.Keep
ESF> me in the loop!

How much of this problem is really MS-specific? I think it would be a
huge door-opener for providing better general interoperability to have a
clear idea of what types of events and tasks have to be dealt with. Then
we can abstract from the org-representation of data and write plugins
for different export formats.
Ie have a general representation of a recurring event, have one
representation for a task (with all the properties it can have) etc.
Building from there, we can look at the different features supported by
other formats and just dump the supported properties into the
corresponding format or use other libraries as interface with, for
example, an exchange server.

Maybe we should start implementing iCalendar as described in
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545 and export our various org tags to
well-defined lisp objects.

This would also benefit all the projects trying to bring org to other
platforms, which are now all rolling their own exporters.


-- 
Philipp Haselwarter

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Nick Dokos]

Philipp Haselwarter <philipp.haselwarter@gmx.de> wrote:

> On 2011-06-20 07:52 UT, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
> ESF> Skip Collins <skip.collins@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> >> I was thinking of trying to get org and microsoft exchange talking to
> >> each other via soap-client.el and exchange web services
> >> (ews).Ultimately it would be nice to have a route into the corporate
> >> world of exchange, outlook, entourage, and blackberry where so many
> >> of us are forced to live.
> >> 
> >> My first goal is to link org TODOs to exchange tasks in some
> >> simplistic way that allows two-way syncing.
> >> 
> >> If that proves feasible, perhaps calendar items could be next.
> >> 
> >> Does this sound useful?If anyone with elisp or web services
> >> programming experience is interested in lending a hand, I am sure to
> >> need some help.
> 
> ESF> +1.
> 
> ESF> My institution is moving to MS Live, whatever that means (I really
> ESF> am completely ignorant of the MS world, for better or for worse).I
> ESF> think this is somehow related to Exchange etc.so any type of
> ESF> integration with org would be greatly helpful for me!At first, all
> ESF> I care about is one way transfer, from the MS world to org but
> ESF> obviously two way syncing would be good.
> 
> ESF> In my case, it's more about calendar events than tasks.My tasks are
> ESF> typically for my information only but meetings etc involve multiple
> ESF> people.
> 
> ESF> I can try to help in due course.We haven't moved to the MS system
> ESF> yet so I cannot yet say how much I will be able to contribute.Keep
> ESF> me in the loop!
> 
> How much of this problem is really MS-specific? I think it would be a
> huge door-opener for providing better general interoperability to have a
> clear idea of what types of events and tasks have to be dealt with. Then
> we can abstract from the org-representation of data and write plugins
> for different export formats.
> Ie have a general representation of a recurring event, have one
> representation for a task (with all the properties it can have) etc.
> Building from there, we can look at the different features supported by
> other formats and just dump the supported properties into the
> corresponding format or use other libraries as interface with, for
> example, an exchange server.
> 
> Maybe we should start implementing iCalendar as described in
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5545 and export our various org tags to
> well-defined lisp objects.
> 
> This would also benefit all the projects trying to bring org to other
> platforms, which are now all rolling their own exporters.
> 

We've discussed iCalendar before on the list - see e.g. the extensive
thread at

       http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/36517

My own thoughts on the above are at 

       http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/36517/focus=42752

and I have made a little progress along the lines described, but
it's nowhere near ready for prime time.

Nick

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Karl Voit]

* Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
>
>> IMHO: Org-mode does *not* seem to be made for managing calendar
>> events that go beyond simple one-time-occurrence events. 
>
> I would argue that this is not at all the case, especially if you
> consider that org uses a tree hierarchy and tags so that one can group
> separate entries in a variety of ways, 

This is fore sure a big advantage of Org-mode!

> you can clone with time shift whole trees, etc.  

Oh, I have to look up that clone thing. This is new to me. Do you
happen to have an URL for this feature by instance?

> Most calendar tools require you to specify all the
> conditions for a particular "event" in one go whereas with org you can
> have a number of different entries for the same "event"... etc.

Full ack.

> Also, with sexp, you can manage practically anything you might like
> although, of course, it does require learning a certain amount of
> elisp.  Recurring events with exceptions are not a problem, for
> instance.

I'd consider myself tech-savvy. But without having learned (E)LISP
(yet), I can not use sexp-entries without reading a manual each time
I want to use it. This is nothing I'd consider for normal users or
daily use. It's not that end-user friendly (when you consider
end-users as users without ELISP knowledge).

For ELISP hackers this might work! But I am not sure how much
percentage of Emacs/Org-mode users actually learned ELISP.

And learning ELISP just to be able to write down a recurring event
seems «strange» to me.

> In any case, as always with computer tools, what works for you is what
> matters!  

Full Ack.

> For me, org is just plainly much more suitable for my mode of
> working; every other calendar system I have tried has constrained me
> much more.  But that's *me*.

This holds for most of the calendar systems out there, I totally
agree.

(This is why I still carry around my old PalmOS-PDA together with my
highly sophisticated Android smartphone...)

>> but you *have* to support at least the same featureset of Outlook
>> Calendar in order to think of a (two-way-) sync mechanism to
>> Org-mode.
>
> I guess this depends on what types of events you are likely to
> have in the outlook calendar.  In my case, only a small feature
> set is likely necessary (mostly repeating lectures and one off
> meetings) so a sync should be possible.  I don't think anybody is
> proposing a full-blown totally automatic sync mechanism between
> org and Outlook (or whatever) that covers the union of the two
> products' feature sets...  insanity lies in that direction ;-)

Sorry, I might have exaggerated a bit.

But since I was implementing a one-way-sync mechanism between two
different calendar systems I got a pretty good feeling of how
different you can define the very same thing. Recurring events with
exceptions is quite common but very hard to sync between different
systems! And I am sure that this is not the only example of «being
common and hard to do».

> But I'll worry about this later this year when forced to use MS...

Oh, sorry to hear about that :-(



For ELISP-hackers out there: is this hard to do? A method which
can be called «generate a series of Org-mode time stamps starting
with $THIS_TIMESTAMP_CONTAINING_REPEATS up to $THIS date». 

I could think of generating such a series of <2011-06-22 Wed>
<2011-06-29 Wed> ... just to be able to see all occurrences of an
event and delete one specific event in between if necessary. This
would ease exceptions for «ordinary» users like me.

-- 
Karl Voit

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Eric S Fraga]

Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:

> * Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
>>
>
>>> IMHO: Org-mode does *not* seem to be made for managing calendar
>>> events that go beyond simple one-time-occurrence events. 
>>
>> I would argue that this is not at all the case, especially if you
>> consider that org uses a tree hierarchy and tags so that one can group
>> separate entries in a variety of ways, 
>
> This is fore sure a big advantage of Org-mode!
>
>> you can clone with time shift whole trees, etc.  
>
> Oh, I have to look up that clone thing. This is new to me. Do you
> happen to have an URL for this feature by instance?

,----[ org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift ]
| org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift is an interactive compiled Lisp
| function in `org.el'.
| 
| It is bound to C-c C-x c, <menu-bar> <Org> <Edit Structure> <Clone
| subtree, shift time>.
| 
| (org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift N &optional SHIFT)
| 
| Clone the task (subtree) at point N times.
| The clones will be inserted as siblings.
| 
| In interactive use, the user will be prompted for the number of
| clones to be produced, and for a time SHIFT, which may be a
| repeater as used in time stamps, for example `+3d'.
| 
| When a valid repeater is given and the entry contains any time
| stamps, the clones will become a sequence in time, with time
| stamps in the subtree shifted for each clone produced.  If SHIFT
| is nil or the empty string, time stamps will be left alone.  The
| ID property of the original subtree is removed.
| 
| If the original subtree did contain time stamps with a repeater,
| the following will happen:
| - the repeater will be removed in each clone
| - an additional clone will be produced, with the current, unshifted
|   date(s) in the entry.
| - the original entry will be placed *after* all the clones, with
|   repeater intact.
| - the start days in the repeater in the original entry will be shifted
|   to past the last clone.
| I this way you can spell out a number of instances of a repeating task,
| and still retain the repeater to cover future instances of the task.
`----

>> Also, with sexp, you can manage practically anything you might like
>> although, of course, it does require learning a certain amount of
>> elisp.  Recurring events with exceptions are not a problem, for
>> instance.
>
> I'd consider myself tech-savvy. But without having learned (E)LISP
> (yet), I can not use sexp-entries without reading a manual each time
> I want to use it. This is nothing I'd consider for normal users or
> daily use. It's not that end-user friendly (when you consider
> end-users as users without ELISP knowledge).

Sure; elisp is non-trivial.  Point taken!

>> I guess this depends on what types of events you are likely to
>> have in the outlook calendar.  In my case, only a small feature
>> set is likely necessary (mostly repeating lectures and one off
>> meetings) so a sync should be possible.  I don't think anybody is
>> proposing a full-blown totally automatic sync mechanism between
>> org and Outlook (or whatever) that covers the union of the two
>> products' feature sets...  insanity lies in that direction ;-)
>
> Sorry, I might have exaggerated a bit.
>
> But since I was implementing a one-way-sync mechanism between two
> different calendar systems I got a pretty good feeling of how
> different you can define the very same thing. Recurring events with
> exceptions is quite common but very hard to sync between different
> systems! And I am sure that this is not the only example of «being
> common and hard to do».

Sure but I think you will find that most of "being command and hard to
do" tasks are easily handled by org; at least, that's my experience.
The difficulty may be finding out how do it as the number of possible
actions in org is quite large.  If there's any complaint one might have
about org, is that it can be used for so many different tasks (calendar,
task management, document preparation, etc.)  that it can be
overwhelming.  Think of one of those very large swiss army knives where
you can spend minutes just trying to find the right "blade" ;-).  But
I'm not complaining! :->

In any case, the org manual, the org web site and Worg, not to mention
this mailing list, provide a wealth of information and use cases.

> For ELISP-hackers out there: is this hard to do? A method which
> can be called «generate a series of Org-mode time stamps starting
> with $THIS_TIMESTAMP_CONTAINING_REPEATS up to $THIS date». 
>
> I could think of generating such a series of <2011-06-22 Wed>
> <2011-06-29 Wed> ... just to be able to see all occurrences of an
> event and delete one specific event in between if necessary. This
> would ease exceptions for «ordinary» users like me.

See above;  I use org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift for setting up, for
instance, the lectures I have to give in a teaching term.  I set up the
initial lectures for each relevant day in the week and then clone the
subtrees, removing any exceptions (reading/study weeks, say) afterwards.

HTH.
-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.5 (release_7.5.412.g8608b)

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Memnon Anon]

Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:

>> you can clone with time shift whole trees, etc.  
>
> Oh, I have to look up that clone thing. This is new to me. Do you
> happen to have an URL for this feature by instance?

C-h i
d
m "org <tab>"
i "clone <RET>"

,----[ (info "(org)Structure editing") ]
| `C-c C-x c'     (`org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift')
|      Clone a subtree by making a number of sibling copies of it.  You
|      will be prompted for the number of copies to make, and you can
|      also specify if any timestamps in the entry should be shifted.
|      This can be useful, for example, to create a number of tasks
|      related to a series of lectures to prepare.  For more details, see
|      the docstring of the command `org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift'.  
`----

Memnon

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Karl Voit]

* Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
>
>> * Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> you can clone with time shift whole trees, etc.  
>>
>> Oh, I have to look up that clone thing. This is new to me. Do you
>> happen to have an URL for this feature by instance?
>
> ,----[ org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift ]
>| ...
> `----

Wow, this is *great* news to me, thanks!

Although this is mentioned in chapter 2 of the Org-mode manual, I
strongly urge to mention this in section 8.3.2 «Repeated tasks»[1]
too!

Where can I place this wish?

> Sure; elisp is non-trivial.  Point taken!

Thanks :-) The resulting problem is that things I can only express
using sexp is non-trivial too.

I'd be glad to see something like this:

       * Event <2011-06-21 Tue +1w> <-2011-06-28 Tue>

... which lets me express an exception (each tuesday starting with
today but not next week) in an easy to use way.

> If there's any complaint one might have about org, is that it can
> be used for so many different tasks (calendar, task management,
> document preparation, etc.)  that it can be overwhelming.  

Agree. But I'd consider the calendar use-case as the worst supported
usecase in this list. I have seen the talks of Carsten Dominik and
AFAIR he clearly says that Org-mode's focus is task oriented and not
calendar oriented.

> Think of one of those very large swiss army knives where
> you can spend minutes just trying to find the right "blade" ;-).  But
> I'm not complaining! :->

:-) Me too *g*

> In any case, the org manual, the org web site and Worg, not to mention
> this mailing list, provide a wealth of information and use cases.

I love the documentation of Org-mode - it's pretty good!

>> For ELISP-hackers out there: is this hard to do? A method which
>> can be called «generate a series of Org-mode time stamps starting
>> with $THIS_TIMESTAMP_CONTAINING_REPEATS up to $THIS date». 
>>
>> I could think of generating such a series of <2011-06-22 Wed>
>> <2011-06-29 Wed> ... just to be able to see all occurrences of an
>> event and delete one specific event in between if necessary. This
>> would ease exceptions for «ordinary» users like me.
>
> See above;  I use org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift for setting up, for
> instance, the lectures I have to give in a teaching term.  I set up the
> initial lectures for each relevant day in the week and then clone the
> subtrees, removing any exceptions (reading/study weeks, say) afterwards.

Sure, org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift is very cool indeed. But it
goes in this direction:

    * Event <2011-06-21 Tue>
    * Event <2011-06-28 Tue>
    * Event <2011-07-05 Tue>
    * Event <2011-07-12 Tue +1w>

But I aim in a slightly different direction:

    * Event
        <2011-06-21 Tue>
        <2011-06-28 Tue>: additional note
        <2011-07-05 Tue>
        <2011-07-12 Tue +1w>

The latter one works pretty well and keeps my Org-file more clear.

So org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift is helping a lot for the upper
method but my personal preference would be the second example.

Is there already any solution to this too?


  1. http://orgmode.org/org.html#Repeated-tasks
-- 
Karl Voit

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Rémi Vanicat]

Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:


[...]


> Sure, org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift is very cool indeed. But it
> goes in this direction:
>
>     * Event <2011-06-21 Tue>
>     * Event <2011-06-28 Tue>
>     * Event <2011-07-05 Tue>
>     * Event <2011-07-12 Tue +1w>
>
> But I aim in a slightly different direction:
>
>     * Event
>         <2011-06-21 Tue>
>         <2011-06-28 Tue>: additional note
>         <2011-07-05 Tue>
>         <2011-07-12 Tue +1w>
>
> The latter one works pretty well and keeps my Org-file more clear.
>
> So org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift is helping a lot for the upper
> method but my personal preference would be the second example.

I would use standard Emacs edit command to go from the first form to the
second one: a keyboard macro or rectangle edit.


-- 
Rémi Vanicat

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Eric S Fraga]

Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:

> * Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
>>
>
>>> * Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>> you can clone with time shift whole trees, etc.  
>>>
>>> Oh, I have to look up that clone thing. This is new to me. Do you
>>> happen to have an URL for this feature by instance?
>>
>> ,----[ org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift ]
>>| ...
>> `----
>
> Wow, this is *great* news to me, thanks!

You're very welcome!

> Although this is mentioned in chapter 2 of the Org-mode manual, I
> strongly urge to mention this in section 8.3.2 «Repeated tasks»[1]
> too!
>
> Where can I place this wish?

You've done so, to some degree, by expressing this on the mailing list.
Better yet, however, is to update the documentation yourself and submit
a patch!  Instructions on how to contribute to org are on the web site
(I'm offline at the moment so cannot give you a direct link; sorry).
Patches to the documentation, in particular, are very welcome and
generally straightforward to generate!

>> Sure; elisp is non-trivial.  Point taken!
>
> Thanks :-) The resulting problem is that things I can only express
> using sexp is non-trivial too.
>
> I'd be glad to see something like this:
>
>        * Event <2011-06-21 Tue +1w> <-2011-06-28 Tue>
>
> ... which lets me express an exception (each tuesday starting with
> today but not next week) in an easy to use way.

Not possible without use of sexp entries, as far as I know.

>> If there's any complaint one might have about org, is that it can
>> be used for so many different tasks (calendar, task management,
>> document preparation, etc.)  that it can be overwhelming.  
>
> Agree. But I'd consider the calendar use-case as the worst supported
> usecase in this list. I have seen the talks of Carsten Dominik and
> AFAIR he clearly says that Org-mode's focus is task oriented and not
> calendar oriented.

Yes, I think that's a fair assessment.  The trick to using org is to
realise that everything in life is really oriented around tasks;
calendaring then comes automatically from this!  The problem is that
most people have gotten used to separating tasks from calendar views
(cf. separation between tasks lists and appointments) and so moving to
org can be a bit of a culture shock.  If you start thinking from the
tasks first, the rest follows.

For instance, I'm working on a project; call it A.  I create a headline
for this project (or a file, or a sub-headline, whatever).  Under this
headline, I will create entries for finances, meetings, notes, actions,
etc.  Everything in one place.  Org then provides a number of "views" to
look at different aspects of this project: agenda view (akin to a
calendar), column view, sparse tree view, tags view, ...  All of these
allow you to see, easily, the particular aspects of a project, or
collection of projects, that are important at any point.

[...]

> Sure, org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift is very cool indeed. But it
> goes in this direction:
>
>     * Event <2011-06-21 Tue>
>     * Event <2011-06-28 Tue>
>     * Event <2011-07-05 Tue>
>     * Event <2011-07-12 Tue +1w>
>
> But I aim in a slightly different direction:
>
>     * Event
>         <2011-06-21 Tue>
>         <2011-06-28 Tue>: additional note
>         <2011-07-05 Tue>
>         <2011-07-12 Tue +1w>
>
> The latter one works pretty well and keeps my Org-file more clear.

I would argue that this is a more limiting view as it is difficult to
add notes to each individual event, something I would often (always?)
want to do!  If each event (meeting?) is a sub-headline of its own,
adding notes, actions that arise, etc is very easy.

Again, you can use org to "view" the information you have in different
ways so I would suggest you explore these views.  For the above, maybe a
Log view in the agenda might give you what you want.

HTH.
-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.5 (release_7.5.414.g56de5)

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Karl Voit]

* Rémi Vanicat <vanicat@debian.org> wrote:
> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
>
>
>> Sure, org-clone-subtree-with-time-shift is very cool indeed. But it
>> goes in this direction:
>>
>>     * Event <2011-06-21 Tue>
>>     * Event <2011-06-28 Tue>
>>     * Event <2011-07-05 Tue>
>>     * Event <2011-07-12 Tue +1w>
>>
>> But I aim in a slightly different direction:
>>
>>     * Event
>>         <2011-06-21 Tue>
>>         <2011-06-28 Tue>: additional note
>>         <2011-07-05 Tue>
>>         <2011-07-12 Tue +1w>
>
> I would use standard Emacs edit command to go from the first form to the
> second one: a keyboard macro or rectangle edit.

This is my current workaround, yes.

But it's a bit annoying because usually I do not start with:

    * Event <2011-07-12 Tue +1w>" 

... but rather with something like:

    * Event <2011-06-21 Tue +1w>
    :PROPERTIES:
    :CREATED: <2011-06-21 Tue 18:40>
    :END:
    <empty line>

And then the whole properties-drawer followed by the empty line gets
cloned too which is not so easy to be modified by a simple rectangle
operation alone.  I'll have to look into Emacs keyboard macros
(since I did not use them for nearly a decade). 

But if this is something a lot of people are aiming to, it might be
a cool idea to provide a not-so-workaround solution :-)

If not, I'll go for a works-for-me solution.

-- 
Karl Voit

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Karl Voit]

* Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
>
> Better yet, however, is to update the documentation yourself and submit
> a patch!

Pulled the current Org-mode files, read the contribution
instructions[1], found the spot where the information should go and
... boom:

,----[ http://orgmode.org/org.html#Repeated-tasks ]
| An alternative to using a repeater is to create a number of copies
| of a task subtree, with dates shifted in each copy. The command C-c
| C-x c was created for this purpose, it is described in Structure
| editing.
`----

Shame on me - I must have overlooked this important thing :-(

>> I'd be glad to see something like this:
>>
>>        * Event <2011-06-21 Tue +1w> <-2011-06-28 Tue>
>>
>> ... which lets me express an exception (each tuesday starting with
>> today but not next week) in an easy to use way.
>
> Not possible without use of sexp entries, as far as I know.

I know. I was dreaming of a future functionality which is easy to
use (and easy to implement?) for the masses that are not yet
enlightened with the knowledge of ELISP :-)

> The trick to using org is to realise that everything in life is
> really oriented around tasks; 

I will remember this statement and think of it the next days ...

> calendaring then comes automatically from this!  The problem is
> that most people have gotten used to separating tasks from
> calendar views (cf. separation between tasks lists and
> appointments) and so moving to org can be a bit of a culture
> shock.  If you start thinking from the tasks first, the rest
> follows.

Hehe. Funny you mention that. Because I am using DateBk6[2] for
PalmOS which integrates tasks into the calendar (very well!). So
this is kina reverse thinking for me now.

(Maybe you can think of «adding a different point of view to
Org-mode» if you want.)

> For instance, I'm working on a project; call it A.  I create a
> headline for this project (or a file, or a sub-headline,
> whatever).  Under this headline, I will create entries for
> finances, meetings, notes, actions, etc.  Everything in one place.

I am currently adopting and developing my workflows for this, yes.

> Org then provides a number of "views" to look at different aspects
> of this project: agenda view (akin to a calendar), column view,
> sparse tree view, tags view, ...  All of these allow you to see,
> easily, the particular aspects of a project, or collection of
> projects, that are important at any point.

I consider this the most important «feature» of Org-mode.

I am dedicating my PhD (not only but mainly) to the notion that
information visualization should not be depending on the structure
the information is *stored* but only depending on the way I need to
have while *accessing* it. 

<advertisement>[3] if you're interested.  It's a research software
that cleverly organizes your local files using tags and not within those
usual (and not working) hierarchies of folders. It intgrates with *any*
application you are currently using on Windows, OS X, and Linux as
well. Current users are very happy with the method provided by
tagstore.</advertisement>

>>     * Event <2011-06-21 Tue>
>>     * Event <2011-06-28 Tue>
>>     * Event <2011-07-05 Tue>
>>     * Event <2011-07-12 Tue +1w>
>>
>> But I aim in a slightly different direction:
>>
>>     * Event
>>         <2011-06-21 Tue>
>>         <2011-06-28 Tue>: additional note
>>         <2011-07-05 Tue>
>>         <2011-07-12 Tue +1w>
>
> I would argue that this is a more limiting view as it is difficult to
> add notes to each individual event, something I would often (always?)
> want to do!  If each event (meeting?) is a sub-headline of its own,
> adding notes, actions that arise, etc is very easy.
>
> Again, you can use org to "view" the information you have in different
> ways so I would suggest you explore these views.  For the above, maybe a
> Log view in the agenda might give you what you want.

True. I'll give it a try.


PS: Thanks for the help so far and I appreciate the community and
discussion here very much.


  1. http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html
  2. http://www.pimlicosoftware.com/datebk6.htm
  3. http://tagstore.org
-- 
Karl Voit

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Matthieu Lemerre]

Hi,

After some digging I found the following setup to share my calendar with
people using outlook.

One problem is that org-mode produces ics files, but they are "calendar
snapshots", and outlook does import them well (if you import them twice,
your calendar items will appear twice)

This problem is described here: 
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/45453/icalendar-and-event-updates-not-working-in-outlook

Basically, Outlook requires RFC2446 calendars for this, which requires
some additional fields (organizer, method, and sequence). It should be
possible to convert org-mode calendar import to produce this kind of
calendars, the only difficult track being to track the sequence numbers.

As a workaround, the best solution I found wast to generate a .ics file
and put it on a private http server (webfsd is appropriate for this).
If the URL to this file is http://nommachine.domain:3000/dir/file.ics,
just change it to webcal://nommachine.domain:3000/dir/file.ics and enter
this URL to Internet explorer. Then outlook can automatically subscribe
to this calendar.

The following lisp code launches the webfsd server and regularly updates
the ics file.

This isn't really "sync", but at least allows yourself and others to see
your calendar in outlook!

Hope that can be useful
Matthieu

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(defun export-icalendar-at-the-right-place ()
   (interactive)
(let ((org-agenda-files '("~/org/org.org"))
      (org-combined-agenda-icalendar-file "~/webfsd_public/org.ics"))
  (org-export-icalendar-combine-agenda-files)))

;; Automacally exports my calendar every 1800s (30 minutes)
(run-at-time "10 min" 1800 #'export-icalendar-at-the-right-place)

;; Launch webfsd to serve the .ics file
(start-process "webfsd" "webfsd" "webfsd" "-r" "/home/me/webfsd_public" "-p" "3001")

;; To access it from outook:
;; webcal://myhost.mydomain.fr:3001/org.ics
#+end_src

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Eric S Fraga]

Matthieu Lemerre <racin@free.fr> writes:

> Hi,
>
> After some digging I found the following setup to share my calendar with
> people using outlook.

[...]

Matthieu,

thanks for this.  I am unable to test it but will likely have to do so
at the end of the summer (northern hemisphere) when we are supposedly
going to be expected to start using various MS tools for collaboration
(yech).  I'll come back to you then! ;-)

Thanks again,
eric
-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.5 (release_7.5.461.g6d18)

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Matthieu Lemerre]

On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:14:19 +0100, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Matthieu Lemerre <racin@free.fr> writes:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > After some digging I found the following setup to share my calendar with
> > people using outlook.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Matthieu,
> 
> thanks for this.  I am unable to test it but will likely have to do so
> at the end of the summer (northern hemisphere) when we are supposedly
> going to be expected to start using various MS tools for collaboration
> (yech).  I'll come back to you then! ;-)

Eric,

No problem. But note that currently I am able to synchronize with people
using Outlook, but not really with Exchange, if that's what you would
like to do...
For the record, here are some other things that I tried/maybe worth
trying:

- Davmail + thunderbird: allows accessing exchange mail and calendar and
  syncinc with it, but did not manage to import org ics into that.

- Evolution and the openexchange client may be other things to try.

- With a bit of elisp (to implement RFC-2446 compliant export), I think
  full outlook/exchange compliance could be really doable.

Matthieu

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Bastien]

Hi Karl,

Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:

> Although this is mentioned in chapter 2 of the Org-mode manual, I
> strongly urge to mention this in section 8.3.2 «Repeated tasks»[1]
> too!
>
> Where can I place this wish?

for your next wish -- one that is not already accomplished :) -- please
create a new thread with your wish as the subject of the email.

Org community is very email-centric, and everything that eases the way I
can stumble on wishes will help us accomplish them.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

How to place a feature wish (was: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events)

[Karl Voit]

* Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:
> Hi Karl,

Hi!

> for your next wish -- one that is not already accomplished :) -- please
> create a new thread with your wish as the subject of the email.
>
> Org community is very email-centric, and everything that eases the way I
> can stumble on wishes will help us accomplish them.

Sorry, I should have thought about that because I am already aware
of this fact. You are absolutely right.

-- 
Karl Voit

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Bastien]

Hi Matthieu,

Matthieu Lemerre <racin@free.fr> writes:

> - With a bit of elisp (to implement RFC-2446 compliant export), I think
>   full outlook/exchange compliance could be really doable.

Can you give an example of a RFC-2446 compliant entry (with the new
field you mentioned in the previous email)?

I guess adding this files to org-icalendar.el is not a big fuss.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Eric S Fraga]

Matthieu Lemerre <racin@free.fr> writes:

> On Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:14:19 +0100, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Matthieu Lemerre <racin@free.fr> writes:
>> 
>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > After some digging I found the following setup to share my calendar with
>> > people using outlook.
>> 
>> [...]
>> 
>> Matthieu,
>> 
>> thanks for this.  I am unable to test it but will likely have to do so
>> at the end of the summer (northern hemisphere) when we are supposedly
>> going to be expected to start using various MS tools for collaboration
>> (yech).  I'll come back to you then! ;-)
>
> Eric,
>
> No problem. But note that currently I am able to synchronize with people
> using Outlook, but not really with Exchange, if that's what you would
> like to do...

I have no idea what I will need to do!  I really am truly ignorant of
the whole MS world other than I know, if push comes to shove, I can
install cygwin and then Emacs when I have to... ;-)

> For the record, here are some other things that I tried/maybe worth
> trying:
>
> - Davmail + thunderbird: allows accessing exchange mail and calendar and
>   syncinc with it, but did not manage to import org ics into that.
>
> - Evolution and the openexchange client may be other things to try.

These two seem to imply using something other than Emacs for my email?
Or have I misunderstood?

> - With a bit of elisp (to implement RFC-2446 compliant export), I think
>   full outlook/exchange compliance could be really doable.

Okay.  I'll keep this in mind although I notice that Bastien has already
asked for a link so maybe this will be done by the time I need it :-)

Thanks again,
eric
-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.5 (release_7.5.510.g56080)

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Bastien]

Hi Karl,

Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:

> Yes, there is this sexp-workaround[1] for more complex things but
> quite frankly: this is not an option for the ordinary user like me
> (not having that much ELISP knowledge).

FWIW: what would perhaps be useful is an interactive way to easily
produce such sexp diary timestamps.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Karl Voit]

* Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:
> Hi Karl,

Hi!

> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
>
>> Yes, there is this sexp-workaround[1] for more complex things but
>> quite frankly: this is not an option for the ordinary user like me
>> (not having that much ELISP knowledge).
>
> FWIW: what would perhaps be useful is an interactive way to easily
> produce such sexp diary timestamps.

For example.

Or an extended syntax of the existing timestamps as I suggested
somewhere in this thread:

    <2011-07-01 Fri +1w> <-2011-07-08 Fri>

... or similar for an exception of a recurring event.

I'd be glad to be of help in terms of brainstorming or «usability
evaluation».

-- 
Karl Voit

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Bastien]

Hi Karl,

Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:

> For example.
>
> Or an extended syntax of the existing timestamps as I suggested
> somewhere in this thread:
>
>     <2011-07-01 Fri +1w> <-2011-07-08 Fri>
>
> ... or similar for an exception of a recurring event.

thanks for the suggestion, I saw it in your previous email.

The idea behind some helper commands to let people construct diary 
sexp is that:

- it won't complexify Org's syntax about timestamps
- such help commands can be maintained and improved independantly 
  from Org

Moreover, the search for a nice interface to building diary sexp
could help understanding what could be the best syntax for Org itself.

It's not that I'm too lazy to implement (I'm a bit, of course), but
I really think the syntax of timestamps should be "improved" very
carefully... it's the core of Org. 

> I'd be glad to be of help in terms of brainstorming or «usability
> evaluation».

Thanks for bringing this issue to discussion!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Org-mode is not able to manage complex calendar events

[Karl Voit]

* Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:
> Hi Karl,

Hi!

> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
>
> The idea behind some helper commands to let people construct diary 
> sexp is that:
>
> - it won't complexify Org's syntax about timestamps
> - such help commands can be maintained and improved independantly 
>   from Org

I see the benefits of maintaining and re-use of things already
invented. This seems to be a trade-off: easy to use vs.
maintaining/re-use.

I am happy to be able to be a part of creating a user friendly sexp
assistant which enables flexible and easy to use user experience for
complicated timestamps.

> Moreover, the search for a nice interface to building diary sexp
> could help understanding what could be the best syntax for Org itself.

Good point.

> It's not that I'm too lazy to implement (I'm a bit, of course), but
> I really think the syntax of timestamps should be "improved" very
> carefully... it's the core of Org. 

Full ack.

-- 
Karl Voit

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Matthieu Lemerre]

Hi Bastien,

On Wed, 29 Jun 2011 01:16:17 +0200, Bastien <bzg@altern.org> wrote:
> Can you give an example of a RFC-2446 compliant entry (with the new
> field you mentioned in the previous email)?

If I take the example given here:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/45453/icalendar-and-event-updates-not-working-in-outlook

Here is the original ics 

BEGIN:VCALENDAR
VERSION:2.0
PRODID:-//WA//FRWEB//EN
METHOD:REQUEST
BEGIN:VEVENT
UID:FRICAL201
SEQUENCE:0
DTSTAMP:20081108T151809Z
ORGANIZER:donotreply@test.com
DTSTART:20081109T121200
SUMMARY:11/9/2008 12:12:00 PM TRIP FROM JFK AIRPORT (JFK)
LOCATION:JFK AIRPORT (JFK)
END:VEVENT
END:VCALENDAR

and here is the update

BEGIN:VCALENDAR
VERSION:2.0
PRODID:-//WA//FRWEB//EN
METHOD:REQUEST
BEGIN:VEVENT
UID:FRICAL201
SEQUENCE:1
DTSTAMP:20081108T161809Z
ORGANIZER:donotreply@test.com
DTSTART:20081109T121300
SUMMARY:11/9/2008 12:13:00 PM TRIP FROM JFK AIRPORT (JFK)
LOCATION:JFK AIRPORT (JFK)
END:VEVENT
END:VCALENDAR


> I guess adding this files to org-icalendar.el is not a big fuss.

Compared to what org-mode currently exports, only three fields are missing:

 - Organizer. This should not be too hard to do (using
   user-mail-adress).
 - Method:request (should also be easy...)
 - The sequence number is more difficult. I think it could be stored as
   a property of an org-mode node, but when should it be updated? Maybe
   it can be just be updated everytime the file is exported, just as ids
   are created when the file is exported.
  
Matthieu

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Matthieu Lemerre]

> 
> I have no idea what I will need to do!  I really am truly ignorant of
> the whole MS world other than I know, if push comes to shove, I can
> install cygwin and then Emacs when I have to... ;-)

Actually, there are emacs binaries for win32 that work without needing
cygwin.

> > For the record, here are some other things that I tried/maybe worth
> > trying:
> >
> > - Davmail + thunderbird: allows accessing exchange mail and calendar and
> >   syncinc with it, but did not manage to import org ics into that.
> >
> > - Evolution and the openexchange client may be other things to try.
> 
> These two seem to imply using something other than Emacs for my email?
> Or have I misunderstood?

Openexchange is a command line tool to synchronize with an exchange
server. But it is still incomplete, and I found it a nightmare to
configure and use.

Evolution is indeed another mail client, but my intent was to use it
solely as a mean to synchronize the org mode ics file with the exchange
calendar. Instead of using outlook for this...

Matthieu

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Eric S Fraga]

Matthieu Lemerre <racin@free.fr> writes:

>> 
>> I have no idea what I will need to do!  I really am truly ignorant of
>> the whole MS world other than I know, if push comes to shove, I can
>> install cygwin and then Emacs when I have to... ;-)
>
> Actually, there are emacs binaries for win32 that work without needing
> cygwin.

thanks; but cygwin seems natural to install in conjunction with emacs as
I want bash et al. if I ever have to use Windows.  having said this,
it's been years since I have had to do this luckily (for me).

>> > For the record, here are some other things that I tried/maybe worth
>> > trying:
>> >
>> > - Davmail + thunderbird: allows accessing exchange mail and calendar and
>> >   syncinc with it, but did not manage to import org ics into that.
>> >
>> > - Evolution and the openexchange client may be other things to try.
>> 
>> These two seem to imply using something other than Emacs for my email?
>> Or have I misunderstood?
>
> Openexchange is a command line tool to synchronize with an exchange
> server. But it is still incomplete, and I found it a nightmare to
> configure and use.
>
> Evolution is indeed another mail client, but my intent was to use it
> solely as a mean to synchronize the org mode ics file with the exchange
> calendar. Instead of using outlook for this...

Thanks for the explanation.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.6 (release_7.6.4.gf305a)

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Bastien]

Hi Matthieu,

Matthieu Lemerre <racin@free.fr> writes:

> Compared to what org-mode currently exports, only three fields are missing:
>
>  - Organizer. This should not be too hard to do (using
>    user-mail-adress).

Okay.

>  - Method:request (should also be easy...)

Should this field be present in every entry?  

What does it mean?

>  - The sequence number is more difficult. I think it could be stored as
>    a property of an org-mode node, but when should it be updated? Maybe
>    it can be just be updated everytime the file is exported, just as ids
>    are created when the file is exported.

What means the SEQUENCE field?  

Thanks for further information!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: org and microsoft exchange

[Achim Gratz]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
> thanks; but cygwin seems natural to install in conjunction with emacs as
> I want bash et al. if I ever have to use Windows.  having said this,
> it's been years since I have had to do this luckily (for me).

Yes, but even with a complete Cygwin install running X in fullscree mode
on the second display I like to have NTemacs around...


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
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