TEC: update the new website ML page?

TEC: update the new website ML page?

[Russell Adams]

https://orgmode.org/community.html

This really needs to state that the Org-mode mailing list is
subscriber only. Membership is open, but that users should subscribe
prior to posting. The Worg page for the ML says that.

As a second request, can we get a link to Worg on the top level bar?

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Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com

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Re: TEC: update the new website ML page?

[Tom Gillespie]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 730 bytes --]

Here is a patch that might serve for the purpose. Best,
Tom

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:47 AM Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> wrote:
>
> https://orgmode.org/community.html
>
> This really needs to state that the Org-mode mailing list is
> subscriber only. Membership is open, but that users should subscribe
> prior to posting. The Worg page for the ML says that.
>
> As a second request, can we get a link to Worg on the top level bar?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
>
> PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/
>
> Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3
>

[-- Attachment #2: 0001-add-Worg-to-preamble-and-note-about-mailing-list.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 1501 bytes --]

From 98057ee1b0c008d38fe7b725bc03c4d9af01ee25 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Tom Gillespie <tgbugs@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:02:42 -0500
Subject: [PATCH] add Worg to preamble and note about mailing list

---
 community.org           | 3 +++
 resources/preamble.html | 1 +
 2 files changed, 4 insertions(+)

diff --git a/community.org b/community.org
index 846abca..427fa06 100644
--- a/community.org
+++ b/community.org
@@ -15,6 +15,9 @@ community.
 You can [[https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode][subscribe to the list]] and [[https://orgmode.org/list][browse the archive]] here at
 =orgmode.org= or via the [[https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/][GNU mailman archive]].
 
+If you are not subscribed to the mailing list your message may be
+delayed because it will need to be approved by the moderators.
+
 You can also check this page for more [[https://orgmode.org/worg/org-web-social.html][Org news on the social web]].
 
 * Chatting about Org
diff --git a/resources/preamble.html b/resources/preamble.html
index 8a952d1..43024e7 100644
--- a/resources/preamble.html
+++ b/resources/preamble.html
@@ -30,6 +30,7 @@ fathom('trackPageview');
     <a href="https://updates.orgmode.org">Updates</a>
     <a href="/install.html">Install</a>
     <a href="/manual">Manual</a>
+    <a href="/worg">Worg</a>
     <a href="/community.html">Community</a>
     <a href="/contribute.html">Contribute</a>
     <!-- <a title="View Source" class="view-source"
-- 
2.26.2

Re: TEC: update the new website ML page?

[Bastien]

Hi Russell,

Russell Adams <RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.Com> writes:

> This really needs to state that the Org-mode mailing list is
> subscriber only. Membership is open, but that users should subscribe
> prior to posting. The Worg page for the ML says that.

FWIW, I just slightly updated this page with this paragraph:

If you are not a subscriber to the list, you can still send an email
to emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, we will add you to the whitelist of people
who can reach the list.

> As a second request, can we get a link to Worg on the top level bar?

I'd rather let Timothy decide on this, as he has the whole picture.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: TEC: update the new website ML page?

[TEC]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> FWIW, I just slightly updated this page with this paragraph:
>
> If you are not a subscriber to the list, you can still send an email
> to emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, we will add you to the whitelist of people
> who can reach the list.

👍

>> As a second request, can we get a link to Worg on the top level bar?
>
> I'd rather let Timothy decide on this, as he has the whole picture.

Thanks Bastien :)

Hi Russel, while I appreciate the significance of Worg, I currently
don't feel that adding it to the header improves the site.

There are two concerns I have on this.

1. I'm very wary of "header creep", see https://0x0.st/iFS7.png for a
   mock up of an "extreme" example.
   IMO the current state is "bulging", with 4-6 items as the ideal.
   Adding Worg would take us to 8. In addition to the increased number
   of visual elements, it also lessens the individual significance of
   the per-existing items. If a "features" item has 3 other items, it is
   much more emphasised than when it has 7 other items.

   This is just a long winded way of me expressing the view that adding
   to the header affects the perception of the rest of the header, and
   thus the overall effect may be negative, as I suspect it would be in
   this case.

2. Worg is usually linked to in very specific instances, e.g.
   "(scientific) papers [about Org]", "The FAQ", "Using Org as a
   spreadsheet".
   It is also often linked, 11 times on the index page for instance.
   This makes me suspect that there is not sufficient benefit in adding
   it to the header.

I could well be missing something obvious, but those are my current
thoughts.

--
Timothy

Re: TEC: update the new website ML page?

[Eric S Fraga]

On Monday, 14 Dec 2020 at 23:37, TEC wrote:
> 1. I'm very wary of "header creep", see

Interesting article, albeit a little old maybe, here:

https://www.humanfactors.com/newsletters/breadth_vs_depth_we_revisit_this_question.asp

Conclusion is that there is no conclusion.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50, Org release_9.4-160-g7c8dce

Re: TEC: update the new website ML page?

[TEC]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Conclusion is that there is no conclusion.

Sounds about right 😂.

Thanks for the link Eric.

--
Timothy

Re: TEC: update the new website ML page?

[Russell Adams]

On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 11:37:09PM +0800, TEC wrote:
> Hi Russel, while I appreciate the significance of Worg, I currently
> don't feel that adding it to the header improves the site.
>
> There are two concerns I have on this.
>
> 1. I'm very wary of "header creep", see https://0x0.st/iFS7.png for a
>    mock up of an "extreme" example.
>    IMO the current state is "bulging", with 4-6 items as the ideal.
>    Adding Worg would take us to 8. In addition to the increased number
>    of visual elements, it also lessens the individual significance of
>    the per-existing items. If a "features" item has 3 other items, it is
>    much more emphasised than when it has 7 other items.
>
>    This is just a long winded way of me expressing the view that adding
>    to the header affects the perception of the rest of the header, and
>    thus the overall effect may be negative, as I suspect it would be in
>    this case.

One could argue that "Releases", "Updates", and "Install" should be
merged into a common download link. They all are the same thing. ;]

I completely agree with you that not everything can live in the
header.

However Worg is a key component because it's community maintained
documentation. Not just anyone can upload to the main site, but Worg
is as "wiki" as we have. As an integral part of the community
supported documentation I thought it should be in the header.

I'm not suggesting any other header spam. ;]


------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com

PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Re: TEC: update the new website ML page?

[TEC]

Russell Adams <RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.Com> writes:

> One could argue that "Releases", "Updates", and "Install" should be
> merged into a common download link. They all are the same thing. ;]

Hmmm. "Updates" seems like a bit of a special thing, but perhaps some
merging could happen sensibly. If that could be worked out, I'd
definitely be much more receptive to the idea of adding another link.

> I completely agree with you that not everything can live in the
> header.

Oh good :)

> However Worg is a key component because it's community maintained
> documentation. Not just anyone can upload to the main site, but Worg
> is as "wiki" as we have. As an integral part of the community
> supported documentation I thought it should be in the header.

I do see your point. I think in order to warrant being presented as a
one-step-from-the-homepage target it would be good to tidy up the Worg
homepage.

At the moment I suspect it would be a bit overwhelming to newcomers ---
everything splurged onto on page seems a bit much :P

How does that sound?

Timothy.

Re: TEC: update the new website ML page?

[Russell Adams]

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 12:29:06AM +0800, TEC wrote:
>
> > However Worg is a key component because it's community maintained
> > documentation. Not just anyone can upload to the main site, but Worg
> > is as "wiki" as we have. As an integral part of the community
> > supported documentation I thought it should be in the header.
>
> I do see your point. I think in order to warrant being presented as a
> one-step-from-the-homepage target it would be good to tidy up the Worg
> homepage.

That's a valid criticism. Worg's main page could use an update to look
more like the main site.

Does Worg's landing page updates need to be addressed before we link
to it in the header?

Any improvements to Worg will require additional volunteer efforts and
will take some time.

Not linking it as an important part of the Org site could contribute
to continued inattention.

I leave it up to you. I value your work revamping the main site, and
you are clearly much more skilled in HTML presentation of information
than I.

Thanks.


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Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com

PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

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Re: TEC: update the new website ML page?

[TEC]

Russell Adams <RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.Com> writes:

>> I do see your point. I think in order to warrant being presented as a
>> one-step-from-the-homepage target it would be good to tidy up the Worg
>> homepage.
>
> That's a valid criticism. Worg's main page could use an update to look
> more like the main site.
>
> Does Worg's landing page updates need to be addressed before we link
> to it in the header?

I'd like to see it get a little attention along those lines before hand,
yes :)

> Any improvements to Worg will require additional volunteer efforts and
> will take some time.

As it just so happens, I've previously volunteered ;)

All the best,

Timothy.

Re: TEC: update the new website ML page?

[Russell Adams]

On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 02:20:08AM +0800, TEC wrote:
> > Does Worg's landing page updates need to be addressed before we link
> > to it in the header?
>
> I'd like to see it get a little attention along those lines before hand,
> yes :)

Then I defer to your expertise! Though I can help organize and edit
some Worg content, I despair that I cannot make it pretty.

Could you itemize some suggestions for what would make Worg worthy of
a header link? Perhaps others can help address those concerns.

> > Any improvements to Worg will require additional volunteer efforts and
> > will take some time.
>
> As it just so happens, I've previously volunteered ;)

You have, and I respect your efforts! I also wouldn't volunteer you,
you have to do that yourself. ;]

Again I'm happy to help organize and cleanup, but I have no talent for
appearance. If you choose to spend time on it and could use a hand,
let me know.

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Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com

PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3