Extra space between list items in HTML export

Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Richard Stanton]

I often use the h:2 option to turn level 3 headers into itemized list entries. When exporting to LaTeX/PDF, the spacing between items is the same this way as it is when I use an explicit itemized list. When exporting to HTML, however, there's some extra space inserted between items when they were originally headers. Here's an example. Export to HTML and you'll see the different spacing:

-------------

#+OPTIONS: h:2, toc:nil

* Example of itemized list
** Blank level 2 header
- List 1
- List 2
- List 3

* Level 3 headings as itemized list, with extra space
** Blank level 2 header
*** List 1
*** List 2
*** List 3

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Nick Dokos]

Richard Stanton <stanton@haas.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> I often use the h:2 option to turn level 3 headers into itemized list entri=
> es. When exporting to LaTeX/PDF, the spacing between items is the same this=
>  way as it is when I use an explicit itemized list. When exporting to HTML,=
>  however, there's some extra space inserted between items when they were or=
> iginally headers. Here's an example. Export to HTML and you'll see the diff=
> erent spacing:
> 
> -------------
> 
> #+OPTIONS: h:2, toc:nil
> 
> * Example of itemized list
> ** Blank level 2 header
> - List 1
> - List 2
> - List 3
> 
> * Level 3 headings as itemized list, with extra space
> ** Blank level 2 header
> *** List 1
> *** List 2
> *** List 3
> 

The old exporter does that: it breaks the second up into three lists, each with a single
element. The first is a single list with three elements.

The new exporter produces a single list with three elements, although it includes
the section number for each entry - this might be a bug.

Nick

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Richard Stanton]

> From: nicholas.dokos@hp.com [mailto:nicholas.dokos@hp.com]
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:37 PM
>
> > #+OPTIONS: h:2, toc:nil
> >
> > * Example of itemized list
> > ** Blank level 2 header
> > - List 1
> > - List 2
> > - List 3
> >
> > * Level 3 headings as itemized list, with extra space
> > ** Blank level 2 header
> > *** List 1
> > *** List 2
> > *** List 3
> >
> 
> The old exporter does that: it breaks the second up into three lists, each with
> a single element. The first is a single list with three elements.
> 
> The new exporter produces a single list with three elements, although it
> includes the section number for each entry - this might be a bug.
> 
> Nick

I also get the section number included as part of the list item text. This does look like a bug.

When I use the new exporter to export to LaTeX/PDF, I get no section numbers, but I get a numbered, rather than itemized, list. This also seems like a (different) bug.

Richard

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Jambunathan K]

>> From: nicholas.dokos@hp.com [mailto:nicholas.dokos@hp.com]
>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:37 PM
>>
>> > #+OPTIONS: h:2, toc:nil
>> >
>> > * Example of itemized list
>> > ** Blank level 2 header
>> > - List 1
>> > - List 2
>> > - List 3
>> >
>> > * Level 3 headings as itemized list, with extra space
>> > ** Blank level 2 header
>> > *** List 1
>> > *** List 2
>> > *** List 3
>> >
>>
>> The old exporter does that: it breaks the second up into three lists, each with
>> a single element. The first is a single list with three elements.
>>
>> The new exporter produces a single list with three elements, although it
>> includes the section number for each entry - this might be a bug.
>>
>> Nick
>
> I also get the section number included as part of the list item
> text. This does look like a bug.
>
> When I use the new exporter to export to LaTeX/PDF, I get no section
> numbers, but I get a numbered, rather than itemized, list. This also
> seems like a (different) bug.

I have pushed a fix to org-e-html.el.

The depth of numbering is according to the value of num:N spec. Use
    num:2 instead of num:t

to get the numbering behaviour you desire.

If something is not according to taste, point me to the markup that is
missing or which needs to be removed (instead of describing it in
English)

> Richard
>
>

--

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Richard Stanton]

On 9/10/12 4:31 PM, "Jambunathan K" <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>>> From: nicholas.dokos@hp.com [mailto:nicholas.dokos@hp.com]
>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:37 PM
>>>
>>> > #+OPTIONS: h:2, toc:nil
>>> >
>>> > * Example of itemized list
>>> > ** Blank level 2 header
>>> > - List 1
>>> > - List 2
>>> > - List 3
>>> >
>>> > * Level 3 headings as itemized list, with extra space
>>> > ** Blank level 2 header
>>> > *** List 1
>>> > *** List 2
>>> > *** List 3
>>> >
>>>
>>> The old exporter does that: it breaks the second up into three lists,
>>>each with
>>> a single element. The first is a single list with three elements.
>>>
>>> The new exporter produces a single list with three elements, although
>>>it
>>> includes the section number for each entry - this might be a bug.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>
>> I also get the section number included as part of the list item
>> text. This does look like a bug.
>>
>> When I use the new exporter to export to LaTeX/PDF, I get no section
>> numbers, but I get a numbered, rather than itemized, list. This also
>> seems like a (different) bug.
>
>I have pushed a fix to org-e-html.el.
>
>The depth of numbering is according to the value of num:N spec. Use
>    num:2 instead of num:t
>
>to get the numbering behaviour you desire.
>
>If something is not according to taste, point me to the markup that is
>missing or which needs to be removed (instead of describing it in
>English)
>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>
>--

Thanks. I'll try the new version.

Meanwhile, as I understand it (and as implemented in the old exporter),
h:2 should mean that only two levels of section headings should be created
at all. Level 3 should be an itemized list (and therefore, implicitly,
should not have a number). Thus, h:2 should imply n:2, I believe.

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Jambunathan K]

Richard Stanton <stanton@haas.berkeley.edu> writes:

> On 9/10/12 4:31 PM, "Jambunathan K" <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>>> From: nicholas.dokos@hp.com [mailto:nicholas.dokos@hp.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:37 PM
>>>>
>>>> > #+OPTIONS: h:2, toc:nil
>>>> >
>>>> > * Example of itemized list
>>>> > ** Blank level 2 header
>>>> > - List 1
>>>> > - List 2
>>>> > - List 3
>>>> >
>>>> > * Level 3 headings as itemized list, with extra space
>>>> > ** Blank level 2 header
>>>> > *** List 1
>>>> > *** List 2
>>>> > *** List 3
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> The old exporter does that: it breaks the second up into three lists,
>>>>each with
>>>> a single element. The first is a single list with three elements.
>>>>
>>>> The new exporter produces a single list with three elements, although
>>>>it
>>>> includes the section number for each entry - this might be a bug.
>>>>
>>>> Nick
>>>
>>> I also get the section number included as part of the list item
>>> text. This does look like a bug.
>>>
>>> When I use the new exporter to export to LaTeX/PDF, I get no section
>>> numbers, but I get a numbered, rather than itemized, list. This also
>>> seems like a (different) bug.
>>
>>I have pushed a fix to org-e-html.el.
>>
>>The depth of numbering is according to the value of num:N spec. Use
>>    num:2 instead of num:t
>>
>>to get the numbering behaviour you desire.
>>
>>If something is not according to taste, point me to the markup that is
>>missing or which needs to be removed (instead of describing it in
>>English)
>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>
> Thanks. I'll try the new version.
>
> Meanwhile, as I understand it (and as implemented in the old exporter),
> h:2 should mean that only two levels of section headings should be created
> at all. Level 3 should be an itemized list (and therefore, implicitly,
> should not have a number). Thus, h:2 should imply n:2, I believe.

New exporter is, hmmm, new.

You can still get the old behaviour.  So, that leaves us with no scope
for complaining.  

I am merely following what Ngz has advised us.

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Richard Stanton]

On 9/10/12 4:45 PM, "Jambunathan K" <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

>Richard Stanton <stanton@haas.berkeley.edu> writes:
>
>> On 9/10/12 4:31 PM, "Jambunathan K" <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>> From: nicholas.dokos@hp.com [mailto:nicholas.dokos@hp.com]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 2:37 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> > #+OPTIONS: h:2, toc:nil
>>>>> >
>>>>> > * Example of itemized list
>>>>> > ** Blank level 2 header
>>>>> > - List 1
>>>>> > - List 2
>>>>> > - List 3
>>>>> >
>>>>> > * Level 3 headings as itemized list, with extra space
>>>>> > ** Blank level 2 header
>>>>> > *** List 1
>>>>> > *** List 2
>>>>> > *** List 3
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> The old exporter does that: it breaks the second up into three lists,
>>>>>each with
>>>>> a single element. The first is a single list with three elements.
>>>>>
>>>>> The new exporter produces a single list with three elements, although
>>>>>it
>>>>> includes the section number for each entry - this might be a bug.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nick
>>>>
>>>> I also get the section number included as part of the list item
>>>> text. This does look like a bug.
>>>>
>>>> When I use the new exporter to export to LaTeX/PDF, I get no section
>>>> numbers, but I get a numbered, rather than itemized, list. This also
>>>> seems like a (different) bug.
>>>
>>>I have pushed a fix to org-e-html.el.
>>>
>>>The depth of numbering is according to the value of num:N spec. Use
>>>    num:2 instead of num:t
>>>
>>>to get the numbering behaviour you desire.
>>>
>>>If something is not according to taste, point me to the markup that is
>>>missing or which needs to be removed (instead of describing it in
>>>English)
>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>
>> Thanks. I'll try the new version.
>>
>> Meanwhile, as I understand it (and as implemented in the old exporter),
>> h:2 should mean that only two levels of section headings should be
>>created
>> at all. Level 3 should be an itemized list (and therefore, implicitly,
>> should not have a number). Thus, h:2 should imply n:2, I believe.
>
>New exporter is, hmmm, new.
>
>You can still get the old behaviour.  So, that leaves us with no scope
>for complaining.  
>
>I am merely following what Ngz has advised us.


The HTML and LaTeX/PDF behavior are now the same, and I can see why the
new behavior is better than the old, since it allows more options, so I'll
stop complaining. For a while, anyway...

Thanks.

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Nick Dokos]

Richard Stanton <stanton@haas.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Meanwhile, as I understand it (and as implemented in the old exporter),
> h:2 should mean that only two levels of section headings should be created
> at all. Level 3 should be an itemized list (and therefore, implicitly,
> should not have a number). Thus, h:2 should imply n:2, I believe.

From my POV, it's not particularly important that the two knobs be
linked: in fact, if they are linked too strongly, there should probably
be just one knob; if they are linked but the linkage is weak, they
become sources of confusion and misunderstanding. I think independent
knobs make things easier most of the time and having to specify them
explicitly in the #+OPTIONS: line helps make things unambiguous (and
they are very useful when one revisits the file in six months, after
having customized a bunch of things that would otherwise change the
behaviour: I don't know about you but it's this kind of thing that gets
me every time).

What is *very* important is that all exporters treat them the *same* way.

With Richard's example[fn:1] and the new exporter, we get different
behavior with HTML and latex (without the num: option or with num:t):

o the second list is unordered in HTML, but enumerated in latex.

o we get third level section numbers decorating the list entries in HTML,
  but not in latex.

Somebody needs to decide what the behavior should be, but then *every*
exporter should behave the same way wrt that set of options. Sure, there
will be situations where it will be impossible to keep them all
compatible. Those will be exceptions, treated and documented as such. In
particular, the common set of options in the manual should be
sacrosanct. If a particular exporter decides to implement a private
option, that's OK (there is a parallel with babel language headers
here): add a description in worg on a page specific to that exporter.

So there'll be three classes of options:

o common - all exporters treat them the "same" way.
o private.
o incompatible - different exporters by necessity treat them differently.

The third set should be as close to empty as humanly possible (and very
carefully documented - in the manual, not on worg - if non-empty).

OTOH, gratuitous differences should be squashed mercilessly.

My 2 cents,
Nick

PS. Consistency may be the hobgoblin of little minds, but it's still
    very important. And Emerson said: "A foolish consistency ..."
    in any case :-)

Footnotes:

[fn:1] I reproduce it here for convenience:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
#+OPTIONS: h:2 toc:nil

* Example of itemized list
** Blank level 2 header
- List 1
- List 2
- List 3

* Level 3 headings as itemized list, with extra space
** Blank level 2 header
*** List 1
*** List 2
*** List 3

--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Jambunathan K]

> With Richard's example[fn:1] and the new exporter, we get different
> behavior with HTML and latex (without the num: option or with num:t):
>
> o the second list is unordered in HTML, but enumerated in latex.
>
> o we get third level section numbers decorating the list entries in HTML,
>   but not in latex.

I think our mails crossed.  This should be fixed.

Remember, I have not marked HTML and ODT exporters for release.  They
are marked as alpha only.  What may seems as bugs, could well be
something that is partially done.

> [fn:1] I reproduce it here for convenience:
>
>
> #+OPTIONS: h:2 toc:nil
>
> * Example of itemized list
> ** Blank level 2 header
> - List 1
> - List 2
> - List 3
>
> * Level 3 headings as itemized list, with extra space
> ** Blank level 2 header
> *** List 1
> *** List 2
> *** List 3

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Nick Dokos]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> > With Richard's example[fn:1] and the new exporter, we get different
> > behavior with HTML and latex (without the num: option or with num:t):
> >
> > o the second list is unordered in HTML, but enumerated in latex.
> >
> > o we get third level section numbers decorating the list entries in HTML,
> >   but not in latex.
> 
> I think our mails crossed.  This should be fixed.

Oh, indeed - they are consistent now. Thanks!

> Remember, I have not marked HTML and ODT exporters for release.  They
> are marked as alpha only.  What may seems as bugs, could well be
> something that is partially done.

Understood - but there is still the fact that different exporters are
written by different people: they are bound to diverge unless some
energy is expended to keep them in line. I just wanted to emphasize
the importance of consistency (probably preaching to the choir).

Thanks,
Nick

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Bastien]

Hi Nick,

Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:

> I just wanted to emphasize
> the importance of consistency (probably preaching to the choir).

FWIW, I strongly agree consistency is important and this is why 
the release of Org 8.0 will require a lot of testing.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Bastien]

Hi Richard,

Richard Stanton <stanton@haas.berkeley.edu> writes:

> #+OPTIONS: h:2, toc:nil
                ^

(Note that the comma is not needed here.)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Bastien]

Hi Nick,

Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:

> The old exporter does that: it breaks the second up into three lists, each with a single
> element. The first is a single list with three elements.

Which is wrong IMO.

> The new exporter produces a single list with three elements, although it includes
> the section number for each entry - this might be a bug.

Which is right.

1 to 0 for the new exporter!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Bastien]

Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:

> With Richard's example[fn:1] and the new exporter, we get different
> behavior with HTML and latex (without the num: option or with num:t):
>
> o the second list is unordered in HTML, but enumerated in latex.
>
> o we get third level section numbers decorating the list entries in HTML,
>   but not in latex.
>
> Somebody needs to decide what the behavior should be, but then *every*
> exporter should behave the same way wrt that set of options.

I think headings that are lower than the n level in "#+OPTION h:n"
should be replaced by enumarated list when num:t and by unordered list
items when num:nil.

If we all agree, let's move toward this.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Richard Stanton]

>
>Hi Nick,
>
>Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> writes:
>
>> The old exporter does that: it breaks the second up into three lists,
>>each with a single
>> element. The first is a single list with three elements.
>
>Which is wrong IMO.
>
>> The new exporter produces a single list with three elements, although
>>it includes
>> the section number for each entry - this might be a bug.
>
>Which is right.
>
>1 to 0 for the new exporter!
>
>-- 
> Bastien

I prefer the old behavior. Let me explain why, in case there's another way
to achieve what I want.

Often I want to create a simple list of TODO items, where I don't want
each item to start a new section, with all the extra space, bold fonts,
etc., that entails. I'd do this using a standard itemized list, except
that (at least last time I checked) org mode insists on TODO items being
headers. To work around this, I use h:2 (say) so that I can make my TODO
items third-level headers and have them printed as an itemized list, as
desired. With the new behavior, this seems impossible, but I can't believe
I'm the only person for whom this is a useful capability.

Richard

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Bastien]

Hi Richard,

Richard Stanton <stanton@haas.berkeley.edu> writes:

> To work around this, I use h:2 (say) so that I can make my TODO
> items third-level headers and have them printed as an itemized list, as
> desired. With the new behavior, this seems impossible, but I can't believe
> I'm the only person for whom this is a useful capability.

Using the new HTML exporter with this file:

#+OPTIONS: H:2 num:t toc:nil

* one
** two
*** three
*** three (bis)


I get an enumerated list for "three" and "three (bis)" -- maybe I lost
track of what the problem was, but this looks like what you are looking
for, doesn't it? 

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Richard Stanton]

> From: Bastien Guerry [mailto:bastienguerry@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
> Bastien
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 11:53 PM
> To: Richard Stanton
> Cc: nicholas.dokos@hp.com; emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export
> 
> Hi Richard,
> 
> Richard Stanton <stanton@haas.berkeley.edu> writes:
> 
> > To work around this, I use h:2 (say) so that I can make my TODO items
> > third-level headers and have them printed as an itemized list, as
> > desired. With the new behavior, this seems impossible, but I can't
> > believe I'm the only person for whom this is a useful capability.
> 
> Using the new HTML exporter with this file:
> 
> #+OPTIONS: H:2 num:t toc:nil
> 
> * one
> ** two
> *** three
> *** three (bis)
> 
> 
> I get an enumerated list for "three" and "three (bis)" -- maybe I lost track of
> what the problem was, but this looks like what you are looking for, doesn't
> it?

Yes - I thought you were advocating changing this behavior, but rereading your message, I now don't think you were...

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Bastien]

Richard Stanton <stanton@haas.berkeley.edu> writes:

> Yes - I thought you were advocating changing this behavior, but
> rereading your message, I now don't think you were...

Okay, looks good, sorry if I was unclear!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export

[Richard Stanton]

> From: Bastien Guerry [mailto:bastienguerry@gmail.com] On Behalf Of
> Bastien
> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 9:45 AM
> To: Richard Stanton
> Cc: nicholas.dokos@hp.com; emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Extra space between list items in HTML export
> 
> Richard Stanton <stanton@haas.berkeley.edu> writes:
> 
> > Yes - I thought you were advocating changing this behavior, but
> > rereading your message, I now don't think you were...
> 
> Okay, looks good, sorry if I was unclear!

What you wrote was perfectly clear. It was my reading that had problems...