Email from org?

Email from org?

[Ethan Ligon]

Over the last three years my projects and daily workflow have come to
depend more and more on org-mode.  A few months ago I took the step of
composing important email as items in an org-file; the heading became
the subject of the email; replies could then fill in the hierarchy
under the heading (reproducing something like threads).

The problem is that the methods I've used to send the message
composed in org-mode and then to assemble the responses have been
entirely crude and unsatisfactory.  There has to be a better way.  In
fact, given my past experience with org-mode, there probably *is* a
better way and I've simply overlooked it.

Vague ideas that have occurred to me:

 - Sending the email might be something like exporting it to smtp?
 - Could org-protocol be useful for acquiring responses?

Thoughts?
-Ethan

Re: Email from org?

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Ethan,

You might want to check out org-mime and the discussion about it  
you'll find in the mailing list archive.  I can verify that this works  
nicely with gnus, though I haven't been able to wean myself from my  
old email habits and use it full time.

All the best,
Tom

On Jul 26, 2010, at 9:13 AM, Ethan Ligon wrote:

> Over the last three years my projects and daily workflow have come to
> depend more and more on org-mode.  A few months ago I took the step of
> composing important email as items in an org-file; the heading became
> the subject of the email; replies could then fill in the hierarchy
> under the heading (reproducing something like threads).
>
> The problem is that the methods I've used to send the message
> composed in org-mode and then to assemble the responses have been
> entirely crude and unsatisfactory.  There has to be a better way.  In
> fact, given my past experience with org-mode, there probably *is* a
> better way and I've simply overlooked it.
>
> Vague ideas that have occurred to me:
>
> - Sending the email might be something like exporting it to smtp?
> - Could org-protocol be useful for acquiring responses?
>
> Thoughts?
> -Ethan
>
>
>
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> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
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Re: Email from org?

[BKnoth]

On 7/26/2010 12:13 PM, Ethan Ligon wrote:
> Over the last three years my projects and daily workflow have come to
> depend more and more on org-mode.  A few months ago I took the step of
> composing important email as items in an org-file; the heading became
> the subject of the email; replies could then fill in the hierarchy
> under the heading (reproducing something like threads).
>
> The problem is that the methods I've used to send the message
> composed in org-mode and then to assemble the responses have been
> entirely crude and unsatisfactory.  There has to be a better way.  In
> fact, given my past experience with org-mode, there probably *is* a
> better way and I've simply overlooked it.
>
> Vague ideas that have occurred to me:
>
>   - Sending the email might be something like exporting it to smtp?
>   - Could org-protocol be useful for acquiring responses?
>
> Thoughts?
> -Ethan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

I got org-mode to send me reminders before appointments via email. I 
wrote it up and put it on my blog, here:

http://myrealtestblog.blogspot.com/2009/12/emailing-alert-before-event-scheduled.html

- Bruce

Re: Email from org?

[Eric Schulte]

See http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/org-mime.php for information on
exporting Org-mode documents to email, and on using Org-mode syntax to
compose email.

Best -- Eric

Ethan Ligon <ligon@are.berkeley.edu> writes:

> Over the last three years my projects and daily workflow have come to
> depend more and more on org-mode.  A few months ago I took the step of
> composing important email as items in an org-file; the heading became
> the subject of the email; replies could then fill in the hierarchy
> under the heading (reproducing something like threads).
>
> The problem is that the methods I've used to send the message
> composed in org-mode and then to assemble the responses have been
> entirely crude and unsatisfactory.  There has to be a better way.  In
> fact, given my past experience with org-mode, there probably *is* a
> better way and I've simply overlooked it.
>
> Vague ideas that have occurred to me:
>
>  - Sending the email might be something like exporting it to smtp?
>  - Could org-protocol be useful for acquiring responses?
>
> Thoughts?
> -Ethan
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Email from org?

[Ethan Ligon]

Eric Schulte <schulte.eric <at> gmail.com> writes:
> 
> See http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/org-mime.php for information on
> exporting Org-mode documents to email, and on using Org-mode syntax to
> compose email.
> 

Thanks for the suggestions regarding org-mime.  I can see that it
would be very useful for composing complicated email.  But I have what
I think is actually a much simpler problem: *sending* email from an
org-file. 

I have in mind something like:

#+TYP_TODO: EMAIL SENT WAITING | DONE

* Broadcasting project
** EMAIL What is the optimal frequency?
   :PROPERTIES:
   :To:       kenneth@example.com
   :END:
   Dear Ken-

   Could you please let me know when you've made progress on computing
   the optimal frequency?

   Thanks,
   -Ethan

Then a transition in workflow state from EMAIL to WAITING would cause
(perhaps via org-mime) the construction of an email

  From: ligon@are.berkeley.edu
  To: kenneth@example.com
  Subject: What is the optimal frequency?
  Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:36:14 -0700

  Dear Ken-

  Could you please let me know when you've made progress on computing
  the optimal frequency?

  Thanks,
  -Ethan

which would then be automagically fed into an SMTP client for
delivery.  Critically, one would *not* need to interrupt one's work
flow in order to go mess around with a mail client; a simple \C-c\C-t
or similar would send the email on its way.

Or very possibly there's an obvious way to accomplish a similar end
that hasn't occurred to me.  Maybe the act of composing an email in a
mail buffer could also format and re-file the message in an org-file,
leading to a workflow similar to what one gets with org-capture?

Any further thoughts welcome!

Thanks,
-Ethan

Re: Re: Email from org?

[David Maus]

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Ethan Ligon wrote:
>Eric Schulte <schulte.eric <at> gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> See http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/org-mime.php for information on
>> exporting Org-mode documents to email, and on using Org-mode syntax to
>> compose email.
>>
>Thanks for the suggestions regarding org-mime.  I can see that it
>would be very useful for composing complicated email.  But I have what
>I think is actually a much simpler problem: *sending* email from an
>org-file.

>I have in mind something like:

FIY: There was a longer debate about such a feature back in 2009.

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/19705/focus=19778

>#+TYP_TODO: EMAIL SENT WAITING | DONE

>* Broadcasting project
>** EMAIL What is the optimal frequency?
>   :PROPERTIES:
>   :To:       kenneth@example.com
>   :END:
>   Dear Ken-

>   Could you please let me know when you've made progress on computing
>   the optimal frequency?

>   Thanks,
>   -Ethan

>Then a transition in workflow state from EMAIL to WAITING would cause
>(perhaps via org-mime) the construction of an email

>  From: ligon@are.berkeley.edu
>  To: kenneth@example.com
>  Subject: What is the optimal frequency?
>  Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:36:14 -0700

>  Dear Ken-

>  Could you please let me know when you've made progress on computing
>  the optimal frequency?

>  Thanks,
>  -Ethan

>which would then be automagically fed into an SMTP client for
>delivery.

IMO this would be overkill: Even if the SMTP dialog is done be an
external library, preparing a message for transmission through email
subsystem has a lot of bells and whistles and pits you can fall
into.

>Critically, one would *not* need to interrupt one's work >flow in
>order to go mess around with a mail client; a simple \C-c\C-t >or
>similar would send the email on its way.

No threading in Emacs, so you would have to wait for the sending
process or figure out a reliable way for asynchronous sending.

>Or very possibly there's an obvious way to accomplish a similar end
>that hasn't occurred to me.  Maybe the act of composing an email in a
>mail buffer could also format and re-file the message in an org-file,
>leading to a workflow similar to what one gets with org-capture?

I think this is the path to follow.  The question is what we would
like to achieve.  If it is keeping track of sent and received
messages, than maybe we wouldn't need a copy of the message but just
references (i.e. links).[1]

Say: You compose and send a message and create an Org mode entry that
says so (Message with subject sent to recipients on).  If you receive
an answer you store a entry saying this (Reply to message X received
from Y on Z).

For this we need a way to maintain the relationship between Org mode
entries and messages so we can jump to messages from within Org and
jump to Org from within the MUA.

I've started to implement something like this for Org's issue tracking
library[2].

The tricky part is that such a mechanism depends on the MUAs
capabilities to interact with Emacs (e.g. WL, Gnus and VM are fine;
mutt might be hacked; Thunderbird? AppleMail?).

HTH,
  -- David

[1] Well, and if we have a reference we could dereference it; say:
Fetch a message and store it as attachment.  This might be as well
helpful for archiving.

[2] http://orgmode.org/worg/org-devel.php#sec-4
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Re: Re: Email from org?

[Eric Schulte]

Hi Ethan,

Ethan Ligon <ligon@are.berkeley.edu> writes:

[...]
>
> Then a transition in workflow state from EMAIL to WAITING would cause
> (perhaps via org-mime) the construction of an email
>
>   From: ligon@are.berkeley.edu
>   To: kenneth@example.com
>   Subject: What is the optimal frequency?
>   Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 13:36:14 -0700
>
>   Dear Ken-
>
>   Could you please let me know when you've made progress on computing
>   the optimal frequency?
>
>   Thanks,
>   -Ethan
>
> which would then be automagically fed into an SMTP client for
> delivery.  Critically, one would *not* need to interrupt one's work
> flow in order to go mess around with a mail client; a simple \C-c\C-t
> or similar would send the email on its way.
>

The following function might get part way towards what you describe.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(defun org-send-email-of-headline ()
  (interactive)
  (let ((subject (org-get-heading t))
        (to (org-entry-get (point) "mailto")))
    (outline-mark-subtree)
    (org-mime-org-buffer-htmlize)
    (save-excursion
      (message-goto-to) (insert to)
      (message-goto-subject) (insert subject))))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Best -- Eric

Re: Email from org?

[Ethan Ligon]

Eric Schulte <schulte.eric <at> gmail.com> writes:
> The following function might get part way towards what you describe.
> 
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> (defun org-send-email-of-headline ()
>   (interactive)
>   (let ((subject (org-get-heading t))
>         (to (org-entry-get (point) "mailto")))
>     (outline-mark-subtree)
>     (org-mime-org-buffer-htmlize)
>     (save-excursion
>       (message-goto-to) (insert to)
>       (message-goto-subject) (insert subject))))
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
> 

Indeed!  This gets me very close to what I had in mind.  Aside from
saying thanks, I have two related things to say:

1) The code snippet above (really org-mime-org-buffer-htmlize)
produces output which is either designed to be further processed by
the mml library (mml-generate-mime) for gnus users or by the semi
library for wanderlust users.  Thus, the buffer resulting from the
above code-snippet is still one step away from being something one
could feed to smtpmail, and makes the output one needs to get from
org-mime dependent on an MUA (gnus or wanderlust).

2) I don't see the reason for this dependence.  Forget what mail
client the user prefers, whether gnus or wanderlust or something else.
Why not just feed the output of org-mime to a scratch buffer, run
(mml-generate-mime) on that, stick the output in a message buffer,
build a header, and then run smtpmail-send-it?  

3) Okay, I see one reason for the dependence: I guess that mml isn't
part of the base emacs distribution.  

4) And I see another reason: if one wanted to edit the htmlized buffer
it might be a little more convenient to work with the semi or mml
representations instead of the mime.  

But (3) and (4) seem weak to me.  What am I missing?

-Ethan

Re: Re: Email from org?

[Eric Schulte]

Hi Ethan,

Ethan Ligon <ligon@are.berkeley.edu> writes:

> Eric Schulte <schulte.eric <at> gmail.com> writes:
>> The following function might get part way towards what you describe.
>> 
>> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>> (defun org-send-email-of-headline ()
>>   (interactive)
>>   (let ((subject (org-get-heading t))
>>         (to (org-entry-get (point) "mailto")))
>>     (outline-mark-subtree)
>>     (org-mime-org-buffer-htmlize)
>>     (save-excursion
>>       (message-goto-to) (insert to)
>>       (message-goto-subject) (insert subject))))
>> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>> 
>
> Indeed!  This gets me very close to what I had in mind.  Aside from
> saying thanks, I have two related things to say:
>
> 1) The code snippet above (really org-mime-org-buffer-htmlize)
> produces output which is either designed to be further processed by
> the mml library (mml-generate-mime) for gnus users or by the semi
> library for wanderlust users.  Thus, the buffer resulting from the
> above code-snippet is still one step away from being something one
> could feed to smtpmail, and makes the output one needs to get from
> org-mime dependent on an MUA (gnus or wanderlust).
>

I personally like this final step of review before sending an email.

As for requiring that the user has an mailer with which to send the
email, it would be possible to change `org-mime-org-buffer-htmlize' to
use `reporter-submit-bug-report' to send the email directly instead of
using `reporter-compose-outgoing' which only prepares the email buffer.

I'm not sure of how to do this while still allowing the existing
behavior for those who do use Emacs for email.  Also, I find the idea of
having a key command send an email from an Org-mode buffer without any
form of confirmation terrifying. :)

>
> 2) I don't see the reason for this dependence.  Forget what mail
> client the user prefers, whether gnus or wanderlust or something else.
> Why not just feed the output of org-mime to a scratch buffer, run
> (mml-generate-mime) on that, stick the output in a message buffer,
> build a header, and then run smtpmail-send-it?  
>

for example, I sometimes like to add a Gcc: header argument to an
outgoing email so that a copy is saved in one of my mail groups.

>
> 3) Okay, I see one reason for the dependence: I guess that mml isn't
> part of the base emacs distribution.  
>

Yes, I suppose mml is part of gnus, but as gnus is distributed along
with Emacs this may be something whose availability can be assumed.

>
> 4) And I see another reason: if one wanted to edit the htmlized buffer
> it might be a little more convenient to work with the semi or mml
> representations instead of the mime.  
>

yes

>
> But (3) and (4) seem weak to me.  What am I missing?
>

My biggest motivation is presented after (1) above.

Best -- Eric

>
> -Ethan
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
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Re: Re: Email from org?

[David Maus]

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Eric Schulte wrote:
>Hi Ethan,

>Ethan Ligon <ligon@are.berkeley.edu> writes:

>> Eric Schulte <schulte.eric <at> gmail.com> writes:
>>> The following function might get part way towards what you describe.
>>>
>>> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
>>> (defun org-send-email-of-headline ()
>>>   (interactive)
>>>   (let ((subject (org-get-heading t))
>>>         (to (org-entry-get (point) "mailto")))
>>>     (outline-mark-subtree)
>>>     (org-mime-org-buffer-htmlize)
>>>     (save-excursion
>>>       (message-goto-to) (insert to)
>>>       (message-goto-subject) (insert subject))))
>>> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>>>
>>
>> Indeed!  This gets me very close to what I had in mind.  Aside from
>> saying thanks, I have two related things to say:
>>
>> 1) The code snippet above (really org-mime-org-buffer-htmlize)
>> produces output which is either designed to be further processed by
>> the mml library (mml-generate-mime) for gnus users or by the semi
>> library for wanderlust users.  Thus, the buffer resulting from the
>> above code-snippet is still one step away from being something one
>> could feed to smtpmail, and makes the output one needs to get from
>> org-mime dependent on an MUA (gnus or wanderlust).
>>

>I personally like this final step of review before sending an email.

>As for requiring that the user has an mailer with which to send the
>email, it would be possible to change `org-mime-org-buffer-htmlize' to
>use `reporter-submit-bug-report' to send the email directly instead of
>using `reporter-compose-outgoing' which only prepares the email buffer.

>I'm not sure of how to do this while still allowing the existing
>behavior for those who do use Emacs for email.  Also, I find the idea of
>having a key command send an email from an Org-mode buffer without any
>form of confirmation terrifying. :)

I see two problems here: First, adding attachments and/or using
digital encryption and signing.  Second, Messages you've sent this way
are not in your trusted messaging system.

>>
>> 2) I don't see the reason for this dependence.  Forget what mail
>> client the user prefers, whether gnus or wanderlust or something else.

See above.  For me, WL is the tool to handle internet messages.  Org
is from this perspective a layer of abstraction: Org is my personal
realm, internet messages is the connection between me and the outside
world netwise.  Things that come to me are filted in WL, maybe go to
Org -- and things that are in Org are filtered by Org and might go
outside.  It's a important border and thus I strive to improve the
workflow between these two realms.

Best,
  -- David
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Re: Re: Email from org?

[Eric S Fraga]

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On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:21:01 -0600, "Eric Schulte" <schulte.eric@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The following function might get part way towards what you describe.
> 
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> (defun org-send-email-of-headline ()

[...]

Eric,

this is brilliant!  Thanks.  This is quickly going to become my
preferred mechanism for initiating some email threads...

One quick question, although this is probably more about org-mime than
about your little function: you have to specify the recipient using
the "mailto" property.  This is fine.  However, the email generated
includes the properties in the text version (not the HTML version).
Can one specify that properties should not be exported to MIME?

Thanks again,
eric

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