Re: [RFC] Moving "manual.org" into core

["Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com>]

Aloha Bastien,

I disagree that the manual project should move into a one year 
probation where success is measured by the number of contributors. 
So, my response to LETS GO! is NOT THERE!

Instead, let's move the project forward with the understanding 
that if it proves to be a bad idea, then the Org mode community 
will have Nicolas' very nice .texi file (with backports by Kyle 
Meyer) to fall back on.

On the issue of your work on Org mode, I'm hoping your 
circumstances will allow you to be more involved, not less.

All the best,
Tom

Bastien writes:

> Hello Thomas,
>
> as a preamble, let me say that I appreciate the directness of 
> your
> message and the civil tone of this conversation.  I understand 
> there
> are frustrations lingering around, I have my own too, so let's 
> keep
> this thread as constructive as possible, because we all deserve 
> it
> as a community.
>
> Let me separate two questions: one is my attitude in dealing 
> with this
> migration; another one is my general ability as a maintainer.
>
> The first question naturally leads to the other one, but the 
> last one
> exists per se and I'll take this opportunity to say a few words.
>
> So, about this manual migration.
>
> Here is a quick timeline:
>
>   In 2013, I said it was a nice experiment.
>
>   In 2014, I said I would be "more than happy" if you and others 
>   could
>   progress on this: 
>   http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/85574
>
>   In 2016, Charles quoted me saying: "Where Bastien says: "the 
>   day we
>   can export org.org to org.texi with very little headache and 
>   ad hoc
>   configuration, yes, we will make the move.""
>
>   In January 2018, I said: "Having the manual in .org is a great
>   achievement, congrats to anyone who worked on this titanic 
>   task!
>   I'm all for editing manual.org instead of org.texi in the long 
>   run."
>
>   In March 2018, I said there was no blocker, "please move 
>   ahead".
>
> So I don't think I have been scolding you or anyone working on 
> this,
> quite on the contrary.  In my message from 2014, I said I won't 
> have
> time to dedicate to the project.  And while I was kind of 
> skeptical
> about the idea, I have been consistent in sending encouragements 
> and
> in not blocking it.
>
> Maybe I should have explained why I was skeptical: but in 
> 2013-2015,
> it was just a gut feeling, and expressing it would probably have 
> been
> unproductive; then when I had this project to develop Org from 
> within
> Emacs, I was not so sure about it either, so I was first 
> cautious not
> to raise premature objections.
>
> When Nicolas sollicited the list again in january, I tried to 
> make a
> few inputs: not as constructive as I'd wish they were, but 
> still.
>
> Now, my main input is this: LET'S GO!
>
> So...  I completely recognize my general lack of responsiveness 
> is a
> problem and it may have been a problem in this case, but I hope 
> you
> see that I carefully tried not to block anyone's work on this. 
> Again:
> asking inputs from emacs-devel@ is not a way of delaying or 
> blocking,
> it is just something normal to do considering the move.
>
> So now let's close this issue, I'll write to emacs-devel@ and we 
> will
> make the switch.
>
>
> Now, about my general experience and attitude as a maintainer.
>
> I started to take care of Org-mode in 2011, on January 1st.
>
> Seven years ago... time flies :)
>
> I've been involved in code and communication on the list on a 
> daily
> basis until septembre 2012, the day my daughter was born.  Stats 
> may
> prove my memory is wrong here, but I think I stayed closely 
> committed
> until septembre 2014.  Enters life: I had a burn out, a break up 
> and
> I was broke.  Like in: completely broke, no job, no place to 
> stay.
>
> I asked Nicolas whether he would considered to be the maintainer 
> on
> several occasions -- the first one dating back to november 2011. 
> We
> always had a frank conversation about this.  Nicolas declined, 
> but we
> managed to find a balanced way of collaborating and I 
> confidently
> moved from being proactive to being more of a release manager.
>
> Despite not being the "official" maintainer, Nicolas is the de 
> facto
> one since 2015.  And again, I cannot express how much I owe to 
> Nicolas
> and his consistency for the last three years.
>
> But believe me: I wish I could continue to spend one or two 
> hours per
> day coding and communicating on the mailing list: because, it's 
> kind
> of a home for me.  But I could not.  And I cannot.
>
>
> So here is my plan:
>
> - We make the switch to using manual.org.
>
> - We release Org 9.2.
>
> - I extract the contrib/ directory from org-mode.git into a 
> separate
>   org-contrib.git to live on code.orgmode.org (something I've 
>   wanted
>   for long).
>
> - I go down my org-mode TODO list to see if there are importants 
> bugs
>   and features I wish to work on.
>
> - In the meantime, I find a new maintainer.
>
> - We release Org 10 and the new maintainer takes on.
>
> I think the whole process can take from 2 to 3 months, and I'm 
> ready
> to dedicate more time to Org during these months.
>
> WDYT?


--
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com