Feature request: export form feed as page break

Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Marvin Gülker]

Dear list,

I am creating training material for the education of German law
students, which usually consists of a case story on one or two pages,
followed by a page break after which a proposal for resolving the case
is provided. The structure is like this because usually I provide the
case story before the meeting, where I work out a solution with the
students, and afterwards I want to provide them with complete material,
while still having everything contained in one file.

With org, I can easily export to LaTeX and thereby to PDF, and it works
quite nicely. However, for the page break I always need to write a
literal \newpage into the document, which does work, but only in LaTeX.
Since I am the only one using org/LaTeX at my chair, I have to convert
these documents to DOCX (using the ODT exporter) when a collegue wants
an editable version of them. As a LaTeX command, \newpage does not work
when exporting to ODT. I thus open the exported document manually after
the export and insert the page break using LibreOffice.

To ease this process, I would like to request that the ASCII control
character U+000C FORM FEED (displayed by emacs as ^L and also known as
`\f' in C string notation) is recognised by exporters and translated to
the corresponding page break command, that is, in LaTeX \newpage and in
ODT to the XML that makes LibreOffice start a new page. For HTML, it
could be exported as <div style="clear: both; page-break-after:
always"/></div> or similar, and for exporters which have no notion of
pages, it could just be copied over to the exported document as-is.

  -MG

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Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Ihor Radchenko]

Marvin Gülker <post+orgmodeml@guelker.eu> writes:

> ....
> To ease this process, I would like to request that the ASCII control
> character U+000C FORM FEED (displayed by emacs as ^L and also known as
> `\f' in C string notation) is recognised by exporters and translated to
> the corresponding page break command, that is, in LaTeX \newpage and in
> ODT to the XML that makes LibreOffice start a new page. For HTML, it
> could be exported as <div style="clear: both; page-break-after:
> always"/></div> or similar, and for exporters which have no notion of
> pages, it could just be copied over to the exported document as-is.

See https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87mtamjrft.fsf@localhost/

In general, adding page breaks can make sense. The main concern is that
the location of page breaks may or may not be export
backend-independent. In certain scenarios, you may need to put page
breaks in one place for odt export, but in other place in LaTeX export
(for example, when page size is different in these two cases).

Below are some of my personal notes on this topic:

Page breaks is one of the common typographical settings people do use.

- In LaTeX, this is easy to achieve simply putting =\clearpage=
- However, in exports like odt, the page break may be tricky and involve direct xml - not great
  https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87leq49bu0.fsf_-_@posteo.net/
  
- Page breaks even make sense in text files (ASCII or even directly in Org)
  https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87mtamjrft.fsf@localhost
  
- Page breaks are directly supported by Emacs (filling), alongside with hard-newlines
  https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/875yhiyxnb.fsf@localhost
  

We may as well add a new element to Org that marks page breaks.

+ Page break should be an object as page breaks do not necessarily split paragraphs
+ People also want page breaks to precede certain elements (most importantly, headlines)
  + This is somewhat unrelated issue though -- too complex just for a single syntax element
    + It would be more productive to introduce generalized syntax to prepend actual Org elements during export

- page breaks location is very much backend-dependent; typographic detail
  https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/875yhiyxnb.fsf@localhost

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Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Max Nikulin]

On 21/10/2023 16:19, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> - page breaks location is very much backend-dependent; typographic 
>   detail https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/875yhiyxnb.fsf@localhost

Is the link correct?

   Ihor Radchenko to emacs-orgmode… Re: FR: support hard-newlines
   [9.5.5 (release_9.5.5 @ /home/viz/lib/ports/emacs/lisp/org/)]
   Tue, 20 Sep 2022 21:37:44 +0800.

Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Ihor Radchenko]

Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> writes:

> On 21/10/2023 16:19, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
>> - page breaks location is very much backend-dependent; typographic 
>>   detail https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/875yhiyxnb.fsf@localhost
>
> Is the link correct?

Indeed, it is not.
The right link is:

https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87sfkaague.fsf@posteo.net/
Manuel Macías [ML:Org mode] (2022) Re: Explicit page breaks

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Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Marvin Gülker]

Am Samstag, dem 21. Oktober 2023 schrieb Ihor Radchenko:
> In general, adding page breaks can make sense. The main concern is that
> the location of page breaks may or may not be export
> backend-independent. In certain scenarios, you may need to put page
> breaks in one place for odt export, but in other place in LaTeX export
> (for example, when page size is different in these two cases).

I think this conflates two different things. On the one hand, there are
typographically indicated page breaks, which appear to be those you are
thinking of here. For instance, the question where to break the page
within a running paragraph of text does depend on how many lines will
show up on the next page; if the answer is 1, better not put a break
here and rather break after the paragraph. Another example would be if
you want a page break before a heading only in certain cases dependent
on other material on the page or the page (size) itself. I agree that
this kind of page break feature cannot be represented properly in (org)
markup.

On the other hand, there are semantic page breaks. The page break I
described in the OP is of this kind – it has been added specifically to
hide the proposed solution from the first page and allow me to just
print page 1 and hand that one to the students. For this page break, the
paper size is completely irrelevant. Even if I printed on A3 for
whatever reason (maybe I ran out of A4 paper), the semantic still
requires the solution to be on page 2. It is this kind of page break I
am referring to and which I think is representable in markup.

> - In LaTeX, this is easy to achieve simply putting =\clearpage=

A quick note here: \newpage and \clearpage do different things in LaTeX
if there is floating material in the document. \clearpage typesets the
floats and then breaks the page, whereas \newpage does not consider them.

  -MG

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Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Ihor Radchenko]

Marvin Gülker <post+orgmodeml@guelker.eu> writes:

> ...
> On the other hand, there are semantic page breaks. The page break I
> described in the OP is of this kind – it has been added specifically to
> hide the proposed solution from the first page and allow me to just
> print page 1 and hand that one to the students. For this page break, the
> paper size is completely irrelevant. Even if I printed on A3 for
> whatever reason (maybe I ran out of A4 paper), the semantic still
> requires the solution to be on page 2. It is this kind of page break I
> am referring to and which I think is representable in markup.

Fair point. And adding "semantic" page breaks to Org syntax will not
rule out "typographical" page breaks via @@backend:...@@ or macro syntax.

>> - In LaTeX, this is easy to achieve simply putting =\clearpage=
>
> A quick note here: \newpage and \clearpage do different things in LaTeX
> if there is floating material in the document. \clearpage typesets the
> floats and then breaks the page, whereas \newpage does not consider them.

If we consider semantic page breaks, I think that \newpage is more
appropriate as it will prevent floats defined below from showing up.

-- 
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Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Max Nikulin]

On 21/10/2023 14:42, Marvin Gülker wrote:
> However, for the page break I always need to write a literal \newpage 
> into the document, which does work, but only in LaTeX.

As a workaround you may define an Org macro that expands to 
@@latex:\newpage@@ and appropriate XML element inside @@odt:…@@.

Another approach is a tag or a property for headings and custom export 
backends that adds page break before or after such headings.

P.S. I am against using non-printable characters for markup. It might be 
an \... entity for page break inside a paragraph, "#+...:" keyword 
between block-level elements, etc.

Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Marvin Gülker]

Am Samstag, dem 21. Oktober 2023 schrieb Max Nikulin:
> As a workaround you may define an Org macro that expands to
> @@latex:\newpage@@ and appropriate XML element inside @@odt:…@@.

Fair enough, this is possible, but then I have to consider each backend
I may export to and read up on how the respective backend does this. As
it stands, I just do not know how the piece inside @@odt:…@@ would have
to look like. If the decision here is to not add a page break feature to
org, then I will probably go that route, though.

> P.S. I am against using non-printable characters for markup. It might
> be an \... entity for page break inside a paragraph, "#+...:" keyword
> between block-level elements, etc.

I have no strong opinion on that, but I just thought that ^L seems like
a good fit, and I saw it used in Elisp files earlier so I thought it is
common enough to just reuse it.

  -MG

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Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Ihor Radchenko]

Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> writes:

> P.S. I am against using non-printable characters for markup. It might be 
> an \... entity for page break inside a paragraph, "#+...:" keyword 
> between block-level elements, etc.

What about all the above? We may provide entity, keyword, and also ^L.

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Org mode contributor,
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Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
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Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Max Nikulin]

On 22/10/2023 16:00, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Max Nikulin writes:
> 
>> P.S. I am against using non-printable characters for markup. It might be
>> an \... entity for page break inside a paragraph, "#+...:" keyword
>> between block-level elements, etc.
> 
> What about all the above? We may provide entity, keyword, and also ^L.

I have not changed my opinion. Control characters should not be used for 
plain text markup.

^L might be inconvenient for users of browser-based tools (organice, 
etc.). Firefox displays it as a square with 0c code inside <textarea> 
and as some space in regular tags. In Chromium it is invisible similar 
to zero-width space. Fortunately browsers allows to copy a paste it, it 
is exemption from control characters that are stripped on copy to 
protect users from unexpected effects of paste.

However e.g. konsole (terminal application) shows a warning popup on 
attempt to paste text containing ^L.

My vote is for portability, so usage of ^L should be discouraged.

Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Jambunathan K]

I am the original author of ox-odt.el.

The page break feature is available as part of
https://github.com/kjambunathan/org-mode-ox-odt

This is a fork of the ODT exporter in Emacs Orgmode.

If you are interested, please open an Discussions thread or a Issue on
Github.  Outline your requirements, and I will be happy to share a
recipe or improve the ODT exporter.

For those who rely on ODT exporter--I know there aren't many--please
consider switching to my repo.

If you are going to ask for a feature request for ODT exporter in
emacs-orgmode, you can get some lip-service, and low-effort
patches. (TLDR: The ODT exporter in Emacs is a working, but a dead
code.)

If you are going to ask for a feature request from me, you will
actually see patches.  (TLDR: I have been at this exporter for well
over 13 years now.  See my contribution activity on Github).

As a PSA, I have been working on an experimental ODS export feature in
order to help Uwe Brauer share Org mode tables (with TBLFMs) to ODS
spreadsheet with Excel formulae.

PS: ox-odt fork is a GPL software.  (People who insist on licenses and 
go crazy about it are commercial minded, or ideological nuts.  I am your 
neighbour uncle who wants to help you (and interact with you) in an 
unstructured setting ...

Jambunathan K.



On 21/10/23 13:12, Marvin Gülker wrote:
> Dear list,
> 
> I am creating training material for the education of German law
> students, which usually consists of a case story on one or two pages,
> followed by a page break after which a proposal for resolving the case
> is provided. The structure is like this because usually I provide the
> case story before the meeting, where I work out a solution with the
> students, and afterwards I want to provide them with complete material,
> while still having everything contained in one file.
> 
> With org, I can easily export to LaTeX and thereby to PDF, and it works
> quite nicely. However, for the page break I always need to write a
> literal \newpage into the document, which does work, but only in LaTeX.
> Since I am the only one using org/LaTeX at my chair, I have to convert
> these documents to DOCX (using the ODT exporter) when a collegue wants
> an editable version of them. As a LaTeX command, \newpage does not work
> when exporting to ODT. I thus open the exported document manually after
> the export and insert the page break using LibreOffice.
> 
> To ease this process, I would like to request that the ASCII control
> character U+000C FORM FEED (displayed by emacs as ^L and also known as
> `\f' in C string notation) is recognised by exporters and translated to
> the corresponding page break command, that is, in LaTeX \newpage and in
> ODT to the XML that makes LibreOffice start a new page. For HTML, it
> could be exported as <div style="clear: both; page-break-after:
> always"/></div> or similar, and for exporters which have no notion of
> pages, it could just be copied over to the exported document as-is.
> 
>    -MG
> 

Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "JK" == Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I am the original author of ox-odt.el.
> The page break feature is available as part of
> https://github.com/kjambunathan/org-mode-ox-odt

> This is a fork of the ODT exporter in Emacs Orgmode.


Hello

Since I have used this exporter for some time now, I would like to share
a few thoughts.

I am «forced» in my university to interchange docx(odt) and excel(ods)
file with my colleagues.[1]. By interchange, I really mean editing
documents. For those of you, who had a similar experience, I presume you
can feel the pain.

Now there were a couple of features I needed and which the org vanilla
exporter did not provide:

    - odt: nested tables and page breaks

    - ods: you can export org-tables to ods in org-mode (I use the
      following wrapper)

#+begin_src 
(defun org-table-export-to-spreadsheet (arg) 
  "Export org table to varios first to cvs and then via LO/OO 
to various  spreadsheet  format, the most common are `ods', `xls' and 
`xlsx'."
  (interactive "sFormat: ")
  (let* ((source-file  (file-name-sans-extension (buffer-file-name (current-buffer))))
         (csv-file (concat source-file ".csv")))
    (org-table-export csv-file "my-tbl-to-csv")
    (org-odt-convert csv-file arg)))
#+end_src

But formulas are not exported, nor can you export various tables to
different sheets.

The https://github.com/kjambunathan/org-mode-ox-odt exporter on the
other side, can:

    1. Export simple formulas such as *vsum* etc

    2. More complicated things like org-lookup-first and remote which
       are then exported as VSLOOKUP etc

    3. Export several tables in one org document to several sheets in an
       ods document.

For me, these features have speeded up my workflow considerably.

Two additional comments

    1. The exporter regularly merges the latest org versions into its
       fork, so there is no compatibility problem.

    2. The author/maintainer is very responsive to bug reports and keen
       to implement new features.

So in summary my experience has been entirely positive.

Regards

Uwe Brauer  


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Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Marvin Gülker]

Am Sonntag, dem 22. Oktober 2023 schrieb Jambunathan K:
> I am the original author of ox-odt.el.
>
> The page break feature is available as part of
> https://github.com/kjambunathan/org-mode-ox-odt

I took a look at https://github.com/kjambunathan/org-mode-ox-odt/blob/master/notes/SNIPPETS.org#improve-support-for-pagebreaks
and indeed, there is a page break feature, but it seems to be exclusive
to this backend. I would prefer it if the page break feature was part of
org’s actual markup and thus work with all backends, including LaTeX,
without backend-specific markup.

> This is a fork of the ODT exporter in Emacs Orgmode.

I heard of it before; for now I think I want to stick with upstream org.
I do keep an eye on this fork in case I need one of its exclusive
features. Since from a technical point, I am mostly writing pretty
boring pure text documents, it worked out until now mostly.

  -MG

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Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Timothy]

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Hi Jambunathan,

> I am the original author of ox-odt.el.
>
> The page break feature is available as part of
> <https://github.com/kjambunathan/org-mode-ox-odt>
>
> This is a fork of the ODT exporter in Emacs Orgmode.

Should I take this to mean that the ox-odt.el in org-mode is no longer actively
maintained?

All the best,
Timothy

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Re: Feature request: export form feed as page break

[Ihor Radchenko]

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

>> This is a fork of the ODT exporter in Emacs Orgmode.
>
> Should I take this to mean that the ox-odt.el in org-mode is no longer actively
> maintained?

ox-odt.el in Org mode does not currently have a dedicated maintainer.
So, it is maintained just as any other library without maintainer in Org
- by core maintainers.

-- 
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