[WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Marco Wahl]

Hi all!

What do you think about binding key h to function describe-mode in Org
agenda?  Basically pressing key h would open a window showing the key
bindings in the agenda.  There would also be additional information.

The implementation could be just the line

    (org-defkey org-agenda-mode-map (kbd "h") #'describe-mode)

Also not that key h has no default binding in Org agenda yet!

The connoisseur of course knows that describe-mode is already just a
{C-h m} away from the Org agenda.  Anyway I think having {h} in the
agenda would be nice.  This would also be consistent with
e.g. help-mode.


Thanks for reading and best regards, 
-- 
Marco

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 11:34:41 +0100, Marco Wahl <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> said:

    Marco> Hi all!
    Marco> What do you think about binding key h to function describe-mode in Org
    Marco> agenda?  Basically pressing key h would open a window showing the key
    Marco> bindings in the agenda.  There would also be additional information.

    Marco> The implementation could be just the line

    Marco>     (org-defkey org-agenda-mode-map (kbd "h") #'describe-mode)

    Marco> Also not that key h has no default binding in Org agenda yet!

Itʼs bound to 'org-agenda-holidays'

    Marco> The connoisseur of course knows that describe-mode is already just a
    Marco> {C-h m} away from the Org agenda.  Anyway I think having {h} in the
    Marco> agenda would be nice.  This would also be consistent with
    Marco> e.g. help-mode.

Meh. People should learn. Bah humbug ;-)

Robert

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Marco Wahl]

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 11:34:41 +0100, Marco Wahl <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> said:
>
>     Marco> Hi all!
>     Marco> What do you think about binding key h to function describe-mode in Org
>     Marco> agenda?  Basically pressing key h would open a window showing the key
>     Marco> bindings in the agenda.  There would also be additional information.
>
>     Marco> The implementation could be just the line
>
>     Marco>     (org-defkey org-agenda-mode-map (kbd "h") #'describe-mode)
>
>     Marco> Also not that key h has no default binding in Org agenda yet!
>
> Itʼs bound to 'org-agenda-holidays'

OMG!  How could I not see this?  Thanks!

>     Marco> The connoisseur of course knows that describe-mode is already just a
>     Marco> {C-h m} away from the Org agenda.  Anyway I think having {h} in the
>     Marco> agenda would be nice.  This would also be consistent with
>     Marco> e.g. help-mode.
>
> Meh. People should learn. Bah humbug ;-)

:)

I just see that with the Org default org-agenda-holidays can be called
with either key h or key H.

What luxury for org-agenda-holidays is this?!

I recreate this suggestion and propose to sacrifice the current default
binding of h.  Let h open the quick help!


Ciao,
-- 
Marco

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Samuel Wales]

are there precedents?  calc?  h in dired does c-h m.

just a brainstorm but maybe c-h m and c-h b can be more friendly for all modes?


On 2/5/21, Marco Wahl <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> wrote:
> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 05 Feb 2021 11:34:41 +0100, Marco Wahl
>>>>>>> <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> said:
>>
>>     Marco> Hi all!
>>     Marco> What do you think about binding key h to function describe-mode
>> in Org
>>     Marco> agenda?  Basically pressing key h would open a window showing
>> the key
>>     Marco> bindings in the agenda.  There would also be additional
>> information.
>>
>>     Marco> The implementation could be just the line
>>
>>     Marco>     (org-defkey org-agenda-mode-map (kbd "h") #'describe-mode)
>>
>>     Marco> Also not that key h has no default binding in Org agenda yet!
>>
>> Itʼs bound to 'org-agenda-holidays'
>
> OMG!  How could I not see this?  Thanks!
>
>>     Marco> The connoisseur of course knows that describe-mode is already
>> just a
>>     Marco> {C-h m} away from the Org agenda.  Anyway I think having {h} in
>> the
>>     Marco> agenda would be nice.  This would also be consistent with
>>     Marco> e.g. help-mode.
>>
>> Meh. People should learn. Bah humbug ;-)
>
> :)
>
> I just see that with the Org default org-agenda-holidays can be called
> with either key h or key H.
>
> What luxury for org-agenda-holidays is this?!
>
> I recreate this suggestion and propose to sacrifice the current default
> binding of h.  Let h open the quick help!
>
>
> Ciao,
> --
> Marco
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

Please learn what misopathy is.
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wronged.html

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Marco Wahl]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> are there precedents?  calc?  h in dired does c-h m.

Looks to me like calc shines brightest with its help system which btw
one enters with key h.

Up to now I see the precedents

- dired
- help-mode
- view-mode 
- Buffer-menu-mode

They all have h be the same as C-h m (describe-mode) AFAICS.

> just a brainstorm but maybe c-h m and c-h b can be more friendly for all modes?

I don't get this.  Would you like to elaborate, please?


Ciao,
-- Marco

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Samuel Wales]

i guess i was merely saying: instead of h, which a new user might not
try, something that works for everything in emacs might be a
possibility.  but c-h m and c-h b could perhaps be improved a bit and
include mode-specific text [details left to reader as exercise].


On 2/5/21, Marco Wahl <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> wrote:
> Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> are there precedents?  calc?  h in dired does c-h m.
>
> Looks to me like calc shines brightest with its help system which btw
> one enters with key h.
>
> Up to now I see the precedents
>
> - dired
> - help-mode
> - view-mode
> - Buffer-menu-mode
>
> They all have h be the same as C-h m (describe-mode) AFAICS.
>
>> just a brainstorm but maybe c-h m and c-h b can be more friendly for all
>> modes?
>
> I don't get this.  Would you like to elaborate, please?
>
>
> Ciao,
> -- Marco
>
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

Please learn what misopathy is.
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wronged.html

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Bastien]

Hi Marco,

Marco Wahl <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> writes:

> What do you think about binding key h to function describe-mode in Org
> agenda?  Basically pressing key h would open a window showing the key
> bindings in the agenda.  There would also be additional information.
>
> The implementation could be just the line
>
>     (org-defkey org-agenda-mode-map (kbd "h") #'describe-mode)

thanks for the proposal.  I'm not convinved that users who don't know
about `C-h m' will think of hitting `h' or another key.  I might be
wrong, so if beginners suggest they expect such a key and were amazed
at how useful C-h m was for them when reading this thread, I might
change my mind.

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Timothy]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> thanks for the proposal.  I'm not convinved that users who don't know
> about `C-h m' will think of hitting `h' or another key.  I might be
> wrong, so if beginners suggest they expect such a key and were amazed
> at how useful C-h m was for them when reading this thread, I might
> change my mind.

I can distinctly recall hitting "?" in Org agenda when I was getting
started, after getting used to Magit.

I actually think Org would benefit from using transient (which has
recently been merged into Emacs), and it could reduce the maintenance
burden, but I suppose that's not possible with our minimum version at
Emacs 24...

--
Timothy

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Bastien]

Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> I actually think Org would benefit from using transient (which has
> recently been merged into Emacs), and it could reduce the maintenance
> burden, but I suppose that's not possible with our minimum version at
> Emacs 24...

I would welcome patches for moving Org to using transient.

Since this is a big effort, big then we will probably move to
supporting Emacs >= 25.1.

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Timothy]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> I would welcome patches for moving Org to using transient.
>
> Since this is a big effort, big then we will probably move to
> supporting Emacs >= 25.1.

Great to hear! I think this would probably be developed as a branch like
wip-cite-new, and it would need transient to be installed (via ELPA?) on
Emacs <28, but I think it has the potential to both:
 - Improve the user experience, and
 - Remove Org's own home-cooked transient-ish interfaces,
   so leave us with less code to watch over

--
Timothy

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Bastien]

Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> Great to hear! I think this would probably be developed as a branch like
> wip-cite-new

Yes.

> , and it would need transient to be installed (via ELPA?) on
> Emacs <28, but I think it has the potential to both:
>  - Improve the user experience, and
>  - Remove Org's own home-cooked transient-ish interfaces,
>    so leave us with less code to watch over

Yes, exactly.  Also there is plan to include Transient in Emacs core,
so this makes this move even more appealing:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-04/msg00944.html

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Tim Cross]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Great to hear! I think this would probably be developed as a branch like
>> wip-cite-new
>
> Yes.
>
>> , and it would need transient to be installed (via ELPA?) on
>> Emacs <28, but I think it has the potential to both:
>>  - Improve the user experience, and
>>  - Remove Org's own home-cooked transient-ish interfaces,
>>    so leave us with less code to watch over
>
> Yes, exactly.  Also there is plan to include Transient in Emacs core,
> so this makes this move even more appealing:
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2021-04/msg00944.html

I would also suggest that if we were going to have a 'help' key, rather
than describe mode, it might be better to link to the info manual (you
could just link to the agenda section of the manual).

I've rarely found describe mode to be terribly useful (there are
exceptions). However, I have used modes which have bound a help key to a
section in the info manual and I've found that much more useful. The
depth of information is usually better (what people looking for help
probably want) and once your in the info pages, moving to cross
references and other possibly relevant sections is very easy.

I also think adding transient mode would be beneficial in a number of
areas of org. In addition to reducing code maintenance, it would
increase consistency with other Emacs modes etc.


-- 
Tim Cross

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[TRS-80]

On 2021-04-28 02:08, Tim Cross wrote:
> I've rarely found describe mode to be terribly useful

I'm the opposite.  I find it a great way to quickly look up (or search
for) some keybinding or function I forgot.

But then again, I know the difference between C-h m and C-h i (as well
as other help options) so if I need the manual (or other information)
I go straight there.  They each have their place, IMO.

Cheers,
TRS-80

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Samuel Wales]

links to the info manual from help pages and vice-versa would be keen.

On 4/29/21, TRS-80 <lists.trs-80@isnotmyreal.name> wrote:
> On 2021-04-28 02:08, Tim Cross wrote:
>> I've rarely found describe mode to be terribly useful
>
> I'm the opposite.  I find it a great way to quickly look up (or search
> for) some keybinding or function I forgot.
>
> But then again, I know the difference between C-h m and C-h i (as well
> as other help options) so if I need the manual (or other information)
> I go straight there.  They each have their place, IMO.
>
> Cheers,
> TRS-80
>
>


-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

Please learn what misopathy is.
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wronged.html

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Ihor Radchenko]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> links to the info manual from help pages and vice-versa would be keen.

See helpful [1] package. It provides links from help buffers to manual.
For links from manual, there is always <F1> v/f/.

[1] https://github.com/Wilfred/helpful

Best,
Ihor

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Greg Minshall]

Timothy,

> I actually think Org would benefit from using transient (which has
> recently been merged into Emacs), and it could reduce the maintenance
> burden, but I suppose that's not possible with our minimum version at
> Emacs 24...

having glanced briefly at transient, would it be something with which
one could, e.g., implement the export menu?

where else in org-mode would you see using it?

(just curiosity.)

cheers, Greg

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Timothy]

Greg Minshall <minshall@umich.edu> writes:

> having glanced briefly at transient, would it be something with which
> one could, e.g., implement the export menu?
>
> where else in org-mode would you see using it?
>
> (just curiosity.)
>
> cheers, Greg

This is going to sound really generic, but I think it's a good model for
performing any action that takes options, and bundling related
functionality. The one exception would probably be capturing.

Off-hand, the export menu is the first thing that comes to mind which
would benefit.  If there's nothing else some patches would be better
than a branch, but it's now part of Emacs, so why not make use of it :)

I feel like other things would come up, but nothing leaps to mind.

--
Timothy

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[Greg Minshall]

Timothy,

thanks!

> Greg Minshall <minshall@umich.edu> writes:
> 
> > having glanced briefly at transient, would it be something with which
> > one could, e.g., implement the export menu?
> >
> > where else in org-mode would you see using it?
> >
> > (just curiosity.)
> >
> > cheers, Greg
> 
> This is going to sound really generic, but I think it's a good model for
> performing any action that takes options, and bundling related
> functionality. The one exception would probably be capturing.
> 
> Off-hand, the export menu is the first thing that comes to mind which
> would benefit.  If there's nothing else some patches would be better
> than a branch, but it's now part of Emacs, so why not make use of it :)
> 
> I feel like other things would come up, but nothing leaps to mind.
> 
> --
> Timothy
> 

Re: [WDYT, mini] key h in agenda for quick help

[TRS-80]

On 2021-04-28 00:59, Timothy wrote:
> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
> 
>> thanks for the proposal.  I'm not convinved that users who don't know
>> about `C-h m' will think of hitting `h' or another key.  I might be
>> wrong, so if beginners suggest they expect such a key and were amazed
>> at how useful C-h m was for them when reading this thread, I might
>> change my mind.
> 
> I can distinctly recall hitting "?" in Org agenda when I was getting
> started, after getting used to Magit.

For some reason, "?" is the single key that comes to my mind as well
(rather than "h" or any other).  I don't know if I got that from
Magit, general GNU/Linux usage, or what?

Having said that, I am not arguing in favor of OPs proposal.  Just
mentioning the "single key" that came to mind, FWIW.  As I mentioned
in another reply, I think things are fine the way they are.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Cheers,
TRS-80