Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Giovanni Ridolfi]

--- Mer 6/5/09, Jan Buchal <buchal@brailcom.org> ha scritto:
> 
> I create simple org table with the build-in table editor.

Jan, your table is ... too simple ;-)

The exporter has to know the first line is the header of the table:
so use the separator  (C-c -)

| Project  |    HH |   PDM |    TC | Summary |
|----------+-------+-------+-------+---------|
| bibli09b |  0.00 |  8.65 | 20.70 |   29.35 |
| brlcm09a |  0.00 |  0.13 |  0.00 |    0.13 |
| eurch09a | 26.70 |  0.59 |  0.00 |   27.29 |

cheers,
Giovanni

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Jan Buchal]

>>>>> "GR" == Giovanni Ridolfi <giovanni.ridolfi@yahoo.it> writes:

    GR> --- Mer 6/5/09, Jan Buchal <buchal@brailcom.org> ha scritto:
    >> 
    >> I create simple org table with the build-in table editor.

    GR> Jan, your table is ... too simple ;-)

    GR> The exporter has to know the first line is the header of the
    GR> table: so use the separator (C-c -)

    GR> | Project | HH | PDM | TC | Summary |
    GR> |----------+-------+-------+-------+---------| | bibli09b | 0.00
    GR> | 8.65 | 20.70 | 29.35 | | brlcm09a | 0.00 | 0.13 | 0.00 | 0.13
    GR> | | eurch09a | 26.70 | 0.59 | 0.00 | 27.29 |

thanks. It works. But if I wont use '!' mark in first column then is in
HTML table no header. Is it possible combine these two things?

Best

-- 

Jan Buchal
Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008
Mob: (00420) 608023021

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 6, 2009, at 5:28 PM, Jan Buchal wrote:

>>>>>> "GR" == Giovanni Ridolfi <giovanni.ridolfi@yahoo.it> writes:
>
>    GR> --- Mer 6/5/09, Jan Buchal <buchal@brailcom.org> ha scritto:
>>>
>>> I create simple org table with the build-in table editor.
>
>    GR> Jan, your table is ... too simple ;-)
>
>    GR> The exporter has to know the first line is the header of the
>    GR> table: so use the separator (C-c -)
>
>    GR> | Project | HH | PDM | TC | Summary |
>    GR> |----------+-------+-------+-------+---------| | bibli09b |  
> 0.00
>    GR> | 8.65 | 20.70 | 29.35 | | brlcm09a | 0.00 | 0.13 | 0.00 | 0.13
>    GR> | | eurch09a | 26.70 | 0.59 | 0.00 | 27.29 |
>
> thanks. It works. But if I wont use '!' mark in first column then is  
> in
> HTML table no header. Is it possible combine these two things?

|   | Project  |    HH |   PDM |    TC | Summary |
| ! | Project  |    HH |   PDM |    TC | Summary |
|---+----------+-------+-------+-------+---------|
|   | bibli09b |  0.00 |  8.65 | 20.70 |   29.35 |
|   | brlcm09a |  0.00 |  0.13 |  0.00 |    0.13 |
|   | eurch09a | 26.70 |  0.59 |  0.00 |   27.29 |
|   | ktnsp09a |  0.00 |  0.13 |  1.00 |    1.13 |
|   | wpbas09a |  0.00 | 21.26 |  5.00 |   26.26 |
|   | Summary  | 26.70 | 30.76 | 26.70 |   84.16 |

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Jan Buchal]

>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

    CD> | | Project | HH | PDM | TC | Summary | | ! | Project | HH | PDM
    CD> | TC | Summary |
Yes, that is a sollution.


-- 

Jan Buchal
Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008
Mob: (00420) 608023021

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Jan Buchal]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 250 bytes --]

Hello again,

the problem is little bit complicate :-) I need <th> not in first row
only but by every column which contain the name of row. In the
attachment you can find the example

-- 

Jan Buchal
Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008
Mob: (00420) 608023021


[-- Attachment #2: vykaz-proj-mesic.html --]
[-- Type: text/html, Size: 3983 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 204 bytes --]

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Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Jan Buchal wrote:

> Hello again,
>
> the problem is little bit complicate :-) I need <th> not in first row
> only but by every column which contain the name of row. In the
> attachment you can find the example

That is currently not possible.

- Carsten


>
> -- 
>
> Jan Buchal
> Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008
> Mob: (00420) 608023021
>
> vykaz-proj-mesic
> Projekt
> absen09a
> bibli09b
> brlcm09a
> cesne09a
> eurch09a
> frebs09a
> ktnsp09a
> novep09a
> trafi09a
> wpbas09a
> Celkem
> HH
> 0.00
> 0.00
> 0.00
> 0.00
> 137.35
> 0.00
> 0.00
> 0.00
> 0.00
> 0.00
> 137.35
> PDM
> 16.00
> 53.12
> 1.80
> 0.00
> 2.20
> 0.00
> 1.11
> 0.55
> 0.31
> 77.71
> 152.80
> TC
> 8.70
> 67.20
> 0.00
> 0.75
> 12.50
> 0.50
> 1.50
> 0.00
> 0.00
> 41.75
> 132.90
> Celkem
> 24.70
> 120.32
> 1.80
> 0.75
> 152.05
> 0.50
> 2.61
> 0.55
> 0.31
> 119.46
> 423.05
> Author: Jan Buchal <buchal@brailcom.org>
>
> Date: 2009-05-07 10:57:04 CEST
>
> HTML generated by org-mode 6.25a in emacs 22
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Jan Buchal]

>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

    CD> On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Jan Buchal wrote:

> Hello again,
    >> 
    >> the problem is little bit complicate :-) I need <th> not in first
    >> row only but by every column which contain the name of row. In
    >> the attachment you can find the example

    CD> That is currently not possible.
And is it possible fix it? From the point of view of accessibility is a
bug. For blind who want read the table is very difficult know which
column or row have which meaning.


Thanks


-- 

Jan Buchal
Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008
Mob: (00420) 608023021

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 7, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Jan Buchal wrote:

>>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>
>    CD> On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Jan Buchal wrote:
>
>> Hello again,
>>>
>>> the problem is little bit complicate :-) I need <th> not in first
>>> row only but by every column which contain the name of row. In
>>> the attachment you can find the example
>
>    CD> That is currently not possible.
> And is it possible fix it? From the point of view of accessibility  
> is a
> bug.

I would not call it a bug, it is a limitation.  Org is not a full HTML  
table editor, there are many things it cannot do, including column and  
row spanning, multiline fields, you name it.

> For blind who want read the table is very difficult know which
> column or row have which meaning.

Of coure I don't know how this works in your environment, but what is  
wring with reading (listening to) the content of the field in column 1?

See, the problem here is that often in tables, the first column is not  
a header field, but just an index number or something.  While the  
first lin in a table usually is a header, the first column is not  
always.

I guess we could have an option to always export the first column as  
header fields.



- Carsten

>
>
> Thanks
>
>
> -- 
>
> Jan Buchal
> Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008
> Mob: (00420) 608023021
>

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 7, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Carsten Dominik wrote:

>
> On May 7, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Jan Buchal wrote:
>
>>>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>   CD> On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Jan Buchal wrote:
>>
>>> Hello again,
>>>>
>>>> the problem is little bit complicate :-) I need <th> not in first
>>>> row only but by every column which contain the name of row. In
>>>> the attachment you can find the example
>>
>>   CD> That is currently not possible.
>> And is it possible fix it? From the point of view of accessibility  
>> is a
>> bug.
>
> I would not call it a bug, it is a limitation.  Org is not a full  
> HTML table editor, there are many things it cannot do, including  
> column and row spanning, multiline fields, you name it.
>
>> For blind who want read the table is very difficult know which
>> column or row have which meaning.
>
> Of coure I don't know how this works in your environment, but what  
> is wring with reading (listening to) the content of the field in  
> column 1?
>
> See, the problem here is that often in tables, the first column is  
> not a header field, but just an index number or something.  While  
> the first lin in a table usually is a header, the first column is  
> not always.
>
> I guess we could have an option to always export the first column as  
> header fields.


OK

(setq org-export-html-table-use-header-tags-for-first-column t)

HTH

- Carsten

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Jan Buchal]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 539 bytes --]



> See, the problem here is that often in tables, the first column is not a
> header field, but just an index number or something.  While  the first lin in
> a table usually is a header, the first column is  not always.
>
> I guess we could have an option to always export the first column as header
> fields.


    CD> OK

    CD> (setq org-export-html-table-use-header-tags-for-first-column t)

It not works.

I aatache my .org file with the table.

Thanks

- Carsten


-- 

Jan Buchal
Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008
Mob: (00420) 608023021


[-- Attachment #2: vykaz-proj-mesic.org --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 786 bytes --]

| Projekt | absen09a | bibli09b | brlcm09a | cesne09a | eurch09a | frebs09a | ktnsp09a | novep09a | trafi09a | wpbas09a | Celkem |
|---------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+--------|
| HH      |     0.00 |     0.00 |     0.00 |     0.00 |   137.35 |     0.00 |     0.00 |     0.00 |     0.00 |     0.00 | 137.35 |
| PDM     |    16.00 |    53.12 |     1.80 |     0.00 |     2.20 |     0.00 |     1.11 |     0.55 |     0.31 |    77.71 | 152.80 |
| TC      |     8.70 |    67.20 |     0.00 |     0.75 |    12.50 |     0.50 |     1.50 |     0.00 |     0.00 |    41.75 | 132.90 |
| Celkem  |    24.70 |   120.32 |     1.80 |     0.75 |   152.05 |     0.50 |     2.61 |     0.55 |     0.31 |   119.46 | 423.05 |

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 204 bytes --]

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Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Nick Dokos]

Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> wrote:

> 
> (setq org-export-html-table-use-header-tags-for-first-column t)
> 

Carsten,

I just did a git pull and I cannot find this variable anywhere
in the tree (nor a git log entry that looks plausible). Are you
sure you committed it?

The last few log entries say:

commit dd1268dcac98867a8983dc1a117c9e86f6c7b286
Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
Date:   Thu May 7 13:53:35 2009 +0200

    New file: contrib/lisp/org-special-blocks.el
    
    Contributed by Chris Gray

commit 412314ab2bc97320f6c4f2103fa9aa001e829b15
Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
Date:   Thu May 7 08:39:12 2009 +0200

    ASCII export: Fix autoloading

commit b5d183e45c4f54bbbf89161322d7f1615cdaa5a2
Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
Date:   Wed May 6 18:47:44 2009 +0200

    Fix bug.

commit 8ac2704c26d896e0d60853807a59d130f8be667a
Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
Date:   Wed May 6 15:49:24 2009 +0200

    New variable `org-ical-timezone'.

Thanks,
Nick

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Carsten Dominik]

Yes, I forgot to push.

- Carsten

On May 7, 2009, at 5:00 PM, Nick Dokos wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <dominik@science.uva.nl> wrote:
>
>>
>> (setq org-export-html-table-use-header-tags-for-first-column t)
>>
>
> Carsten,
>
> I just did a git pull and I cannot find this variable anywhere
> in the tree (nor a git log entry that looks plausible). Are you
> sure you committed it?
>
> The last few log entries say:
>
> commit dd1268dcac98867a8983dc1a117c9e86f6c7b286
> Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
> Date:   Thu May 7 13:53:35 2009 +0200
>
>    New file: contrib/lisp/org-special-blocks.el
>
>    Contributed by Chris Gray
>
> commit 412314ab2bc97320f6c4f2103fa9aa001e829b15
> Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
> Date:   Thu May 7 08:39:12 2009 +0200
>
>    ASCII export: Fix autoloading
>
> commit b5d183e45c4f54bbbf89161322d7f1615cdaa5a2
> Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
> Date:   Wed May 6 18:47:44 2009 +0200
>
>    Fix bug.
>
> commit 8ac2704c26d896e0d60853807a59d130f8be667a
> Author: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
> Date:   Wed May 6 15:49:24 2009 +0200
>
>    New variable `org-ical-timezone'.
>
> Thanks,
> Nick

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Jan Buchal]

    CD> On May 7, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Jan Buchal wrote:

>>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
    >> 
    CD> On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Jan Buchal wrote:
>
>> Hello again,
>>>
>>> the problem is little bit complicate :-) I need <th> not in first
>>> row only but by every column which contain the name of row. In
>>> the attachment you can find the example
>
>    CD> That is currently not possible.
> And is it possible fix it? From the point of view of accessibility is a
> bug.

    CD> I would not call it a bug, it is a limitation. Org is not a full
    CD> HTML table editor, there are many things it cannot do, including
    CD> column and row spanning, multiline fields, you name it.
Unfortunately it is a bug. See please WCAG documentation. 

Best regards


-- 

Jan Buchal
Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008
Mob: (00420) 608023021

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Sebastian Rose]

Jan Buchal <buchal@brailcom.org> writes:
>     CD> On May 7, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Jan Buchal wrote:
>
>>>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>     >> 
>     CD> On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Jan Buchal wrote:
>>
>>> Hello again,
>>>>
>>>> the problem is little bit complicate :-) I need <th> not in first
>>>> row only but by every column which contain the name of row. In
>>>> the attachment you can find the example
>>
>>    CD> That is currently not possible.
>> And is it possible fix it? From the point of view of accessibility is a
>> bug.
>
>     CD> I would not call it a bug, it is a limitation. Org is not a full
>     CD> HTML table editor, there are many things it cannot do, including
>     CD> column and row spanning, multiline fields, you name it.
> Unfortunately it is a bug. See please WCAG documentation. 


It's not. It's just something not implemented. And, as I see it, it
would be complicated to implement.


What you want seems to be this:

  1. It's recommended to put the column headers into the <thead> element
     (Org-mode does this). That way column headers are re-printed on every
     page, if a table exceeds the size of one printed page.

  2. It's recommended to use <th> elements in tables like this:

  | Country | Number of citizens  |
  |---------+--------------------|
  | Germany | 84 Mio.            |
  | France  | XXX Mio.           |

  In this case it could make sense to put the country names in <th>
  tags (see 4.). I think this is, what you wanted.


  3. Use the caption element to describe the purpose of a
     table. Org-mode does this.
  

  4. The `scope' attribut describes, wich table cells are concerned by
     the <th> element.

     Again, our country example. This table should be handled corretly
     by a screen reader:

     <table>
      <caption>Citizens per country</caption>
      <thead>
       <tr>
        <th scope="col"> Country </th>
        <th scope="col"> Number of citizens </th>
       </tr>
     </thead>
     <tbody>
      <tr>
       <th scope="row"> Germany </th>
       <td> 84 Mio. </td>
      </tr>
      <tr>
       <th scope="row"> France </th>
       <td> XXX Mio. </td>
      </tr>
      ...


There are more possible values for `scope' (`colgroup' and `rowgroup')
as well, as some additional possibilities to assign headers to cells
(`header' and `id') in such a way, that multiple headers describe one
cell.

In our example, the headers `Germany' and `Number of citizens' would
describe the cell `84 Mio.'.



I don't see, how Org-mode could decide which headers describe wich
cells.

The most obvious thing to do would be, to


    a) mark cells as table-headers (this is the only needed new
       Org-syntax feature),
    b) if in the first table row, add a  scope="col" to the <th> tag,
    c) if in the first column, add a   scope="row"  to  the <th> tag. 



Beacuse if we take all those possible assignments into account, we'll
get something complicated to code, use and document...
We would have to end with some kind of `formular' syntax, like the one
used for the spreadsheet capabilities.


Regards

   Sebastian

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 7, 2009, at 5:47 PM, Sebastian Rose wrote:

> Jan Buchal <buchal@brailcom.org> writes:
>>    CD> On May 7, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Jan Buchal wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>    CD> On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Jan Buchal wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello again,
>>>>>
>>>>> the problem is little bit complicate :-) I need <th> not in first
>>>>> row only but by every column which contain the name of row. In
>>>>> the attachment you can find the example
>>>
>>>   CD> That is currently not possible.
>>> And is it possible fix it? From the point of view of accessibility  
>>> is a
>>> bug.
>>
>>    CD> I would not call it a bug, it is a limitation. Org is not a  
>> full
>>    CD> HTML table editor, there are many things it cannot do,  
>> including
>>    CD> column and row spanning, multiline fields, you name it.
>> Unfortunately it is a bug. See please WCAG documentation.
>
>
> It's not. It's just something not implemented. And, as I see it, it
> would be complicated to implement.
>
>
> What you want seems to be this:
>
>  1. It's recommended to put the column headers into the <thead>  
> element
>     (Org-mode does this). That way column headers are re-printed on  
> every
>     page, if a table exceeds the size of one printed page.
>
>  2. It's recommended to use <th> elements in tables like this:
>
>  | Country | Number of citizens  |
>  |---------+--------------------|
>  | Germany | 84 Mio.            |
>  | France  | XXX Mio.           |
>
>  In this case it could make sense to put the country names in <th>
>  tags (see 4.). I think this is, what you wanted.
>
>
>  3. Use the caption element to describe the purpose of a
>     table. Org-mode does this.
>
>
>  4. The `scope' attribut describes, wich table cells are concerned by
>     the <th> element.
>
>     Again, our country example. This table should be handled corretly
>     by a screen reader:
>
>     <table>
>      <caption>Citizens per country</caption>
>      <thead>
>       <tr>
>        <th scope="col"> Country </th>
>        <th scope="col"> Number of citizens </th>
>       </tr>
>     </thead>
>     <tbody>
>      <tr>
>       <th scope="row"> Germany </th>
>       <td> 84 Mio. </td>
>      </tr>
>      <tr>
>       <th scope="row"> France </th>
>       <td> XXX Mio. </td>
>      </tr>
>      ...
>
>
> There are more possible values for `scope' (`colgroup' and `rowgroup')
> as well, as some additional possibilities to assign headers to cells
> (`header' and `id') in such a way, that multiple headers describe one
> cell.
>
> In our example, the headers `Germany' and `Number of citizens' would
> describe the cell `84 Mio.'.
>
>
>
> I don't see, how Org-mode could decide which headers describe wich
> cells.
>
> The most obvious thing to do would be, to
>
>
>    a) mark cells as table-headers (this is the only needed new
>       Org-syntax feature),
>    b) if in the first table row, add a  scope="col" to the <th> tag,
>    c) if in the first column, add a   scope="row"  to  the <th> tag.


OK, this is ho it works now....

Thanks

- Carsten

>
>
>
> Beacuse if we take all those possible assignments into account, we'll
> get something complicated to code, use and document...
> We would have to end with some kind of `formular' syntax, like the one
> used for the spreadsheet capabilities.
>
>
> Regards
>
>   Sebastian

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Jan Buchal]

>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
[....]

    >> a) mark cells as table-headers (this is the only needed new
    >> Org-syntax feature), b) if in the first table row, add a
    >> scope="col" to the <th> tag, c) if in the first column, add a
    >> scope="row" to the <th> tag.


    CD> OK, this is ho it works now....

Can you please give me an example of table with these parameters?

Thanks


-- 
Jan Buchal
Tel: +420242486008
Mob: +420608023021
http://www.brailcom.org

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Carsten Dominik]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 774 bytes --]


On May 9, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Jan Buchal wrote:

>>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
> [....]
>
>>> a) mark cells as table-headers (this is the only needed new
>>> Org-syntax feature), b) if in the first table row, add a
>>> scope="col" to the <th> tag, c) if in the first column, add a
>>> scope="row" to the <th> tag.
>
>
>    CD> OK, this is ho it works now....
>
> Can you please give me an example of table with these parameters?

Hi Jan,

the following table

  | Country | Number of citizens |
  |---------+--------------------|
  | Germany | 84 Mio.            |
  | France  | XXX Mio.           |

exported with

    (setq org-export-html-table-use-header-tags-for-first-column t)

results in the attached html file.

HTH

- Carsten


[-- Attachment #2: jan.html --]
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[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 1 bytes --]



[-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 204 bytes --]

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Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Jan Buchal]

    SR> Jan Buchal <buchal@brailcom.org> writes:
    CD> On May 7, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Jan Buchal wrote:
    >> 
>>>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
    >> >> 
    CD> On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Jan Buchal wrote:
>>
>>> Hello again,
>>>>
>>>> the problem is little bit complicate :-) I need <th> not in first
>>>> row only but by every column which contain the name of row. In
>>>> the attachment you can find the example
>>
>>    CD> That is currently not possible.
>> And is it possible fix it? From the point of view of accessibility is a
>> bug.
>
>     CD> I would not call it a bug, it is a limitation. Org is not a full
>     CD> HTML table editor, there are many things it cannot do, including
>     CD> column and row spanning, multiline fields, you name it.
> Unfortunately it is a bug. See please WCAG documentation. 


    SR> It's not. It's just something not implemented.

Aha, do you use a screen reader? :-) I bellieve that from your point of
view is something what is not implemented only. You don't need it.
Please try close your eye on one week and work with computer. :-) If an
application has missing accessibility features then is a bug.

Have a nice day


-- 
Jan Buchal
Tel: +420242486008
Mob: +420608023021
http://www.brailcom.org

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Carsten Dominik]

On May 8, 2009, at 10:37 AM, Jan Buchal wrote:

>
>    SR> Jan Buchal <buchal@brailcom.org> writes:
>    CD> On May 7, 2009, at 12:44 PM, Jan Buchal wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>
>    CD> On May 7, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Jan Buchal wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello again,
>>>>>
>>>>> the problem is little bit complicate :-) I need <th> not in first
>>>>> row only but by every column which contain the name of row. In
>>>>> the attachment you can find the example
>>>
>>>   CD> That is currently not possible.
>>> And is it possible fix it? From the point of view of accessibility  
>>> is a
>>> bug.
>>
>>    CD> I would not call it a bug, it is a limitation. Org is not a  
>> full
>>    CD> HTML table editor, there are many things it cannot do,  
>> including
>>    CD> column and row spanning, multiline fields, you name it.
>> Unfortunately it is a bug. See please WCAG documentation.
>
>
>    SR> It's not. It's just something not implemented.
>
> Aha, do you use a screen reader? :-) I bellieve that from your point  
> of
> view is something what is not implemented only. You don't need it.
> Please try close your eye on one week and work with computer. :-) If  
> an
> application has missing accessibility features then is a bug.

Hi Jan,

while I can imagine the constant frustration that people with
accessibility requirements have to face when working in a
world designed without disabilities in mind, I still would
like to disagree.

A bug is something that does not work "as advertised", a feature
that is claimed to be present and working well, but actually is
not present or broken.

Org does not claim to be fully accessible - even though it
is (in connection with Emacs speak) probably a lot more
accessible for blind people than almost any program out
there.  And I will try to improve in this direction
where it makes sense - I just don't like my program to be called
buggy where it is not. :-)

- Carsten

>
> Have a nice day
>
>
> -- 
> Jan Buchal
> Tel: +420242486008
> Mob: +420608023021
> http://www.brailcom.org

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Jan Buchal]

>>>>> "CD" == Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

[....]

    CD> Hi Jan,

    CD> while I can imagine the constant frustration that people with
    CD> accessibility requirements have to face when working in a world
    CD> designed without disabilities in mind, I still would like to
    CD> disagree.
You mix two things:

- an application is or not designed for disability people
- html table must contain the right sintax which is include to WCAG

    CD> A bug is something that does not work "as advertised", a feature
    CD> that is claimed to be present and working well, but actually is
    CD> not present or broken.
Yes. In case of html table which is create by .org sw is the bug.

    CD> Org does not claim to be fully accessible - even though it is
    CD> (in connection with Emacs speak) probably a lot more accessible
    CD> for blind people than almost any program out there. And I will
    CD> try to improve in this direction where it makes sense - I just
    CD> don't like my program to be called buggy where it is not. :-)
HTML table not depend with emacs, speechd/el or another emacs
application.

Have a nice day

-- 
Jan Buchal
Tel: +420242486008
Mob: +420608023021
http://www.brailcom.org

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Nick Dokos]

Jan Buchal <buchal@brailcom.org> wrote:

> HTML table not depend with emacs, speechd/el or another emacs
> application.
> 

Jan,

I know you tested the setting of the variable that Carsten suggested and
it did not work. But it turned out that Carsten forgot to check in the
change that he had made. He now has done that.  Assuming that you are
using the development version of org from the git repository, have you
tried pulling the latest bits, setting the variable and exporting of the
table to html again?

If not, please try again: I suspect that the immediate problem you were
complaining about has been resolved.

Regards,
Nick

Re: Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Giovanni Ridolfi]

--- Mer 6/5/09, Jan Buchal <buchal@brailcom.org> ha scritto:
> But if I wont use '!' mark in first
> column then is in HTML table no header. 
?-(

Jan, 

In section 3.5.8 Advanced features [note 1]

[note 1]  Please note that the section is  a SUBsection of the 
         *SPREADSHEET* feature of the manual:
        Tables:: > The spreadsheet:: > Advanced features

the manual states: 

`!' The fields in this line define names for the columns, so that you
     may refer to a column as `$Tot' instead of `$6'.

So  why do you insist in using "!" ?
what do you want to achieve? 
what are the names of the columns you are referring to?

cheers,
Giovanni

Re: An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Jan Buchal]

>>>>> "GR" == Giovanni Ridolfi <giovanni.ridolfi@yahoo.it> writes:

    GR> --- Mer 6/5/09, Jan Buchal <buchal@brailcom.org> ha scritto:
    >> But if I wont use '!' mark in first column then is in HTML table
    >> no header.
    GR> ?-(

    GR> Jan,

    GR> In section 3.5.8 Advanced features [note 1]

    GR> [note 1] Please note that the section is a SUBsection of the
    GR> *SPREADSHEET* feature of the manual: Tables:: > The
    GR> spreadsheet:: > Advanced features
yes, i Know.

    GR> the manual states:

    GR> `!' The fields in this line define names for the columns, so
    GR> that you may refer to a column as `$Tot' instead of `$6'.
Yes, that is what i want. 
    GR> So why do you insist in using "!" ? what do you want to achieve?
    GR> what are the names of the columns you are referring to?
I want use aliases for refer not the munber of row or column.


Thanks

-- 

Jan Buchal
Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008
Mob: (00420) 608023021

An improvement for a reading of exported HTML tables

[Jan Buchal]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 473 bytes --]

Hello,

I create simple org table with the build-in table editor. First row I
use for name of columns. If I export the table to HTML then is there
only <td></td> tags. That is problem for screen reader because it
nothing knows about name of column which is read.

If will be used <th></th> tag then screen reader read the name of column
correct. I attache a small .org file with two tables as an example.


-- 

Jan Buchal
Tel: (00420) 24 24 86 008
Mob: (00420) 608023021


[-- Attachment #2: accessible-table.org --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 970 bytes --]

* Example of a table 1

the export of this table is with first row but the tags are <td>, must be <th>

| Project  |    HH |   PDM |    TC | Summary |
| bibli09b |  0.00 |  8.65 | 20.70 |  29.35 |
| brlcm09a |  0.00 |  0.13 |  0.00 |   0.13 |
| eurch09a | 26.70 |  0.59 |  0.00 |  27.29 |
| ktnsp09a |  0.00 |  0.13 |  1.00 |   1.13 |
| wpbas09a |  0.00 | 21.26 |  5.00 |  26.26 |
| Summary | 26.70 | 30.76 | 26.70 |  84.16 |



* Example of table 2

The export of this table is without first row. I think that '!' in first column can be use as the mark for export to html, also all columns would be marked as <th>



| ! | Project  |    HH |   PDM |    TC | Summary |
|   | bibli09b |  0.00 |  8.65 | 20.70 |  29.35 |
|   | brlcm09a |  0.00 |  0.13 |  0.00 |   0.13 |
|   | eurch09a | 26.70 |  0.59 |  0.00 |  27.29 |
|   | ktnsp09a |  0.00 |  0.13 |  1.00 |   1.13 |
|   | wpbas09a |  0.00 | 21.26 |  5.00 |  26.26 |
|   | Summary  | 26.70 | 30.76 | 26.70 |  84.16 |


[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 204 bytes --]

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