* Subscript with parenthesis
@ 2023-09-21 22:45 Tom Alexander
2023-09-21 23:02 ` Tom Alexander
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Tom Alexander @ 2023-09-21 22:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
The org-mode documentation[1] states that the SCRIPT portion of the subscript/superscript is either an asterisk, the standard set of objects wrapped in balanced curly braces, or an optional sign followed by "Either the empty string, or a string consisting of any number of alphanumeric characters, commas, backslashes, and dots"
But I'm seeing the following test document parse as containing a subscript despite using parenthesis which I do not think matches any of the above criteria:
```
foo_(bar)
```
[1] https://orgmode.org/worg/org-syntax.html#Subscript_and_Superscript
--
Tom Alexander
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Subscript with parenthesis
2023-09-21 22:45 Subscript with parenthesis Tom Alexander
@ 2023-09-21 23:02 ` Tom Alexander
2023-09-22 9:14 ` Ihor Radchenko
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Tom Alexander @ 2023-09-21 23:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
Some additional things I'm noticing:
- when using parenthesis, :use-brackets-p is nil, so they're not equivalent to curly braces.
- it does not support objects inside the parenthesis, just plain text, which again means they're not equivalent to braces.
- it, however, seems to require that the parenthesis are balanced because this test document does NOT contain a subscript:
```
foo_(b(ar)
```
which is closer to the curly braces requirement since that seems to be the only part of the subscript/superscript documentation that mentions needing balance.
--
Tom Alexander
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Subscript with parenthesis
2023-09-21 23:02 ` Tom Alexander
@ 2023-09-22 9:14 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-29 16:12 ` Tom Alexander
2024-02-17 14:06 ` [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? (was: Subscript with parenthesis) Ihor Radchenko
0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2023-09-22 9:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Alexander; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
"Tom Alexander" <tom@fizz.buzz> writes:
> Some additional things I'm noticing:
>
> - when using parenthesis, :use-brackets-p is nil, so they're not equivalent to curly braces.
`org-element-subscript-parser' uses `org-match-substring-regexp', which
indeed allows foo_(...). This is not documented in org-syntax.org and in
the manual (12.3 Subscripts and Superscripts).
> - it does not support objects inside the parenthesis, just plain text, which again means they're not equivalent to braces.
Not true. I tried
b^(*asd*) and bold inside superscript does get parsed.
> - it, however, seems to require that the parenthesis are balanced because this test document does NOT contain a subscript:
> ```
> foo_(b(ar)
> ```
> which is closer to the curly braces requirement since that seems to be the only part of the subscript/superscript documentation that mentions needing balance.
Yup - the regexp used is the same with what we do for curly braces:
(defconst org-match-substring-regexp
(concat
"\\(\\S-\\)\\([_^]\\)\\("
"\\(?:" (org-create-multibrace-regexp "{" "}" org-match-sexp-depth) "\\)"
"\\|"
"\\(?:" (org-create-multibrace-regexp "(" ")" org-match-sexp-depth) "\\)"
"\\|"
"\\(?:\\*\\|[+-]?[[:alnum:].,\\]*[[:alnum:]]\\)\\)")
"The regular expression matching a sub- or superscript.")
--
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread* Re: Subscript with parenthesis
2023-09-22 9:14 ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2023-09-29 16:12 ` Tom Alexander
2024-02-17 14:06 ` [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? (was: Subscript with parenthesis) Ihor Radchenko
1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Tom Alexander @ 2023-09-29 16:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
> Not true. I tried
>
> b^(*asd*) and bold inside superscript does get parsed.
Ah thanks for double-checking! You're right, that is getting parsed. Not sure what test document I was using to make me think objects didn't work inside the parenthesis.
--
Tom Alexander
pgp: https://fizz.buzz/pgp.asc
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? (was: Subscript with parenthesis)
2023-09-22 9:14 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-29 16:12 ` Tom Alexander
@ 2024-02-17 14:06 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-02-17 19:36 ` William Denton
` (2 more replies)
1 sibling, 3 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2024-02-17 14:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tom Alexander; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
> "Tom Alexander" <tom@fizz.buzz> writes:
>
>> Some additional things I'm noticing:
>>
>> - when using parenthesis, :use-brackets-p is nil, so they're not equivalent to curly braces.
>
> `org-element-subscript-parser' uses `org-match-substring-regexp', which
> indeed allows foo_(...). This is not documented in org-syntax.org and in
> the manual (12.3 Subscripts and Superscripts).
Inconsistent with LaTeX syntax, Org mode not only allows
x^{superscript}, but also x^(superscript) with round braces used for
grouping.
This does not seem to be documented in the manual and is only vaguely
mentioned in the `org-use-sub-superscripts' docstring in a single
example:
x_{i^2} or x^(2-i) braces or parenthesis do grouping.
The rest of the docstring only refers to {} or just to genetic "braces".
This situation is awkward, because such subtle inconsistency between Org
and LaTeX syntax can be very surprising.
To demonstrate, try to export the following to pdf:
# ---
Direct latex code =$foo^(bar)$= :: @@latex:$foo^(bar)$@@
Org mode markup =foo^(bar)= :: foo^(bar)
# ---
The first line will only create superscript for "(", while the second
line will make the whole "(bar)" into superscript.
-----
I tentatively propose to remove the x^(2-i) example from the docstring
and mark the ^(...) syntax deprecated.
WDYT?
--
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread* Re: [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? (was: Subscript with parenthesis)
2024-02-17 14:06 ` [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? (was: Subscript with parenthesis) Ihor Radchenko
@ 2024-02-17 19:36 ` William Denton
2024-02-17 20:03 ` Thomas Dye
2024-02-17 21:22 ` Mark Barton
2024-02-19 18:15 ` [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? Fraga, Eric
2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: William Denton @ 2024-02-17 19:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
On Saturday, February 17th, 2024 at 07:07, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> wrote:
> I tentatively propose to remove the x^(2-i) example from the docstring
> and mark the ^(...) syntax deprecated.
>
> WDYT?
I think it's very sensible. It's surprising ^(...) works like this, and if anyone was using it (perhaps by accident) it will be easy to change when necessary.
Bill
--
William Denton
https://www.miskatonic.org/
Librarian, artist and licensed private investigator.
Toronto, Canada
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? (was: Subscript with parenthesis)
2024-02-17 19:36 ` William Denton
@ 2024-02-17 20:03 ` Thomas Dye
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Dye @ 2024-02-17 20:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: William Denton; +Cc: Ihor Radchenko, emacs-orgmode
+1
Tom
> On Feb 17, 2024, at 9:38 AM, William Denton <william@williamdenton.org> wrote:
>
> On Saturday, February 17th, 2024 at 07:07, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> wrote:
>
>> I tentatively propose to remove the x^(2-i) example from the docstring
>> and mark the ^(...) syntax deprecated.
>>
>> WDYT?
>
> I think it's very sensible. It's surprising ^(...) works like this, and if anyone was using it (perhaps by accident) it will be easy to change when necessary.
>
>
> Bill
>
> --
> William Denton
> https://www.miskatonic.org/
> Librarian, artist and licensed private investigator.
> Toronto, Canada
>
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? (was: Subscript with parenthesis)
2024-02-17 14:06 ` [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? (was: Subscript with parenthesis) Ihor Radchenko
2024-02-17 19:36 ` William Denton
@ 2024-02-17 21:22 ` Mark Barton
2024-02-19 18:15 ` [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? Fraga, Eric
2 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Mark Barton @ 2024-02-17 21:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: Tom Alexander, emacs-orgmode
> On Feb 17, 2024, at 5:33 AM, Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> wrote:
>
> WDYT?
+1
I use the curly braces since I often use underscores for other reasons. There would be no impact to me and this is the first I ever heard that parentheses would work.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax?
2024-02-17 14:06 ` [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? (was: Subscript with parenthesis) Ihor Radchenko
2024-02-17 19:36 ` William Denton
2024-02-17 21:22 ` Mark Barton
@ 2024-02-19 18:15 ` Fraga, Eric
2024-02-19 18:30 ` Ihor Radchenko
2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Fraga, Eric @ 2024-02-19 18:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: Tom Alexander, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
On Saturday, 17 Feb 2024 at 14:06, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Inconsistent with LaTeX syntax, Org mode not only allows
> x^{superscript}, but also x^(superscript) with round braces used for
> grouping.
Inconsistent with LaTeX is not a sufficient reason for removing this, in
my opinion. Org has /dwim/ elements which make it easier to write some
expressions than in LaTeX. Another example is ~x^-1~ which works as I
want but would make no sense in LaTeX (where only the "-" would be
superscripted, not the 1).
--
: Eric S Fraga, with org release_9.6.18-1158-g8e2ed4 in Emacs 30.0.50
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread* Re: [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax?
2024-02-19 18:15 ` [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? Fraga, Eric
@ 2024-02-19 18:30 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-03-20 13:57 ` Ihor Radchenko
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2024-02-19 18:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fraga, Eric; +Cc: Tom Alexander, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
"Fraga, Eric" <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
> On Saturday, 17 Feb 2024 at 14:06, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
>> Inconsistent with LaTeX syntax, Org mode not only allows
>> x^{superscript}, but also x^(superscript) with round braces used for
>> grouping.
>
> Inconsistent with LaTeX is not a sufficient reason for removing this, in
> my opinion. Org has /dwim/ elements which make it easier to write some
> expressions than in LaTeX. Another example is ~x^-1~ which works as I
> want but would make no sense in LaTeX (where only the "-" would be
> superscripted, not the 1).
Good point.
Although, do note that unlike x^word, x^(some text) is not documented.
Moreover, options like ^:{} create an impression that only curly braces
are accepted.
--
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread* Re: [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax?
2024-02-19 18:30 ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2024-03-20 13:57 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-04-21 9:44 ` Ihor Radchenko
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2024-03-20 13:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Fraga, Eric; +Cc: Tom Alexander, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net> writes:
> "Fraga, Eric" <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> On Saturday, 17 Feb 2024 at 14:06, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
>>> Inconsistent with LaTeX syntax, Org mode not only allows
>>> x^{superscript}, but also x^(superscript) with round braces used for
>>> grouping.
>>
>> Inconsistent with LaTeX is not a sufficient reason for removing this, in
>> my opinion. Org has /dwim/ elements which make it easier to write some
>> expressions than in LaTeX. Another example is ~x^-1~ which works as I
>> want but would make no sense in LaTeX (where only the "-" would be
>> superscripted, not the 1).
>
> Good point.
> Although, do note that unlike x^word, x^(some text) is not documented.
> Moreover, options like ^:{} create an impression that only curly braces
> are accepted.
Upon further examination, I found that ^:{} does accept _only_ curly
braces:
#+options: ^:{}
x^word
x^{word}
x^(word)
yields (in latex export):
x\^{}word
x\textsuperscript{word}
x\^{}(word)
So, round braces can be seen as another variant of DWIM behavior.
I conclude that there is no reason to change the existing syntax.
I will need to update `org-use-sub-superscripts' docstring and
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-syntax.html#Subscript_and_Superscript to
document this special case.
Maybe also update the manual section 12.3 Subscripts and Superscripts.
--
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
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2023-09-21 22:45 Subscript with parenthesis Tom Alexander
2023-09-21 23:02 ` Tom Alexander
2023-09-22 9:14 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-29 16:12 ` Tom Alexander
2024-02-17 14:06 ` [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? (was: Subscript with parenthesis) Ihor Radchenko
2024-02-17 19:36 ` William Denton
2024-02-17 20:03 ` Thomas Dye
2024-02-17 21:22 ` Mark Barton
2024-02-19 18:15 ` [DISCUSSION] What should we do with undocumented x^(superscript inside /round/ braces) syntax? Fraga, Eric
2024-02-19 18:30 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-03-20 13:57 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-04-21 9:44 ` Ihor Radchenko
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