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From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
Cc: Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:16:19 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <X8SAI25+K6us/fmy@protected.rcdrun.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87lfejy80o.fsf@gmail.com>

* Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> [2020-11-30 04:00]:
> The issue at this point wasn't about whether there is a problem with how
> org manages org-agenda-files or even the acknowledged weakness in the
> documentation which needs a patch. The issue here is about attitude and
> being respectful.

I think it would be best if the actual technical issue would be put
attention to and get solved as that is where problem comes from.

Every person reporting Emacs bug is very important. Finally it is
contributor to Emacs.

People use Emacs to handle their life problems. When user stumbles
upon an obstacle that is life related obstacle. It has practical
meanings related to life that are difficult to realize on distance
through a thin medium of email communication.

When the true obstacle is not handled it is quite logical that it may
lead to frustrations. It may not, but "it may" is enough and one shall
try to handle the obstacle and not put attention on frustration that
derives from the obstacle, as where one puts attention that is what
one gets.

Person is not first being surprised that M-x report-emacs-bug is not
handled as Emacs Bug. I think that alone is definitely a bug, and we
recently discussed it, and here we are again.

Good read for participants:

GNU Kind Communications Guidelines
==================================
   Author: Richard Stallman
     Type: WWW
Hyperlink: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html

Instead of using programming to automate WHERE the bug related to
org-mode should be routed there is lack of consensus and now we have:

,----
| M-x report-emacs-bug
| 
| M-x org-submit-bug-report
| 
| M-x TeX-submit-bug-report
| 
| M-x lm-report-bug
`----

and so on. Emacs is already taking user's data and inserting into the
buffer to send email. Why it does not ask user to which part the bug
relates?

,----
| - Do you wish to designate mode to which this bug relates?
|   - Org mode
|   - TeX mode
|   - General editing
`----

After that question the email can have a tag [org-mode] and upon the
tag the maildrop or procmail or other email filter could forward the
bug to specific mailing list. Simple really. Standard GNU/Linux and
Unix handling of emails.

Various mailing lists arrive to my IMAP by being sorted first by the
`maildrop' command line tool.

Examples:

,----
| if ((/^To:.*emacs\-devel/))
| {
|    to "./Maildir/.emacs-devel/."
| }
`----

If email is written to `emacs-devel' please sort it in this folder. In
this fashion I can make a filter:

- if email has a tag: [org-mode] please send it to THIS-EMAIL-ADDRESS

Then emacs-report-bug could rank the user among beginner, intermediate
and advance.

Then we have the contradiction in description:

Is the Org mode part of Emacs? One gets it with Emacs so it is part of
Emacs. 

Then somebody may say it is part of Emacs but somebody will tell it is
not part of Emacs. 

Without listening I can observe that Org is part of Emacs and it says
so in the org.el and what is written is what is presented to users and
one need not bring these doubts onto user about facts that are clearly
there. Those are issues to be discussed beyond users' bugs.

I look at those things from a tolerant view point and that issues
reported shall better be solved in welcoming manner.

Fact is that Org is part of GNU Emacs.

,----
| ;;; org.el --- Outline-based notes management and organizer -*- lexical-binding: t; -*-
| 
| ;; Carstens outline-mode for keeping track of everything.
| ;; Copyright (C) 2004-2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
| 
| ;; Version: 9.4
| 
| ;; This file is part of GNU Emacs.
`----

Another ways but mail filtering ways of handling bugs that should be
forwarded to org mailing list can be very simple:

- let us discuss that it is fine to forward such issues to Org mailing
  list. Issue may arrive to help-gnu-emacs mailing list and could be
  copied to org mailing list as well by some of participants. Is this
  alright to do?

- people who are subscribed to emacs bugs mailing list could simply
  forward it to mailing list. In Mutt email reader that is very
  simple, I can or could just bounce the email or forward email to
  another email address and rmail and other email readers have same
  functions. Easy peasy.

- some people from Org mailing list may get subscribed to bug tracker
  and review emails there, when they answer the bug they may include
  org mailing list.

- let us work cooperative and in welcoming manner and without
  introduction of doubts

It is that simple.

Side reference from November 2020 that shows that it is legitimate to
report Org issues to Emacs bug mailing list, finally Org is part of
Emacs:

- Org issue does get discussed on Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01832.html

- person reports Org issue to Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01672.html

- another Org issue handled on Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg02176.html

- including Org in Emacs is discussed on Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01649.html

- Org export on Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01613.html

- Org issue on Emacs bug mailing list:
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg00576.html

There will be more coming.

Let us think of Emacs users. There are very many that will never even
report a bug as people do not like to get confronted with elitism or
similar attitudes like "I know it better and you don't know".



  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-11-30 10:36 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 30+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <trinity-80d8aadc-661f-4964-b2d6-28992e59cda7-1606599247632@3c-app-mailcom-bs11>
2020-11-29 15:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-29 15:12   ` daniela-spit
2020-11-29 15:37     ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2020-11-29 15:52       ` daniela-spit
     [not found]   ` <X8PMXhbf6c9gUrLo@protected.rcdrun.com>
2020-11-29 16:59     ` daniela-spit
     [not found]       ` <X8PY831MFXCGSLMO@protected.rcdrun.com>
2020-11-29 17:53         ` daniela-spit
2020-11-29 18:08         ` daniela-spit
2020-11-29 23:51           ` Tim Cross
2020-11-30  0:05             ` Christopher Dimech
2020-11-30  8:42               ` tomas
     [not found]         ` <trinity-57e444a4-55c2-4674-884b-bec92da370e5-1606673304407__39253.1388950133$1606673463$gmane$org@3c-app-mailcom-bs12>
2020-11-29 18:20           ` gyro funch
2020-11-29 18:31             ` daniela-spit
2020-11-29 21:20               ` Kyle Meyer
2020-11-29 21:32                 ` daniela-spit
2020-11-29 21:51                   ` Re[2]: " Gyro Funch
2020-11-29 22:10                     ` daniela-spit
2020-11-30  0:09                       ` Tim Cross
2020-11-30  0:26                         ` Christopher Dimech
2020-11-30  0:59                           ` Tim Cross
2020-11-30  1:27                             ` Christopher Dimech
2020-11-30  2:50                               ` Tim Cross
2020-11-30  3:19                                 ` Christopher Dimech
2020-11-30  5:16                             ` Jean Louis [this message]
2020-11-30  0:51                         ` daniela-spit
2020-11-30  1:20                           ` Tim Cross
2020-11-30  5:42               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-29 17:21     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-11-29 17:39       ` Glenn Morris
2020-11-29 17:59         ` daniela-spit
2021-06-01 15:42           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen

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