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* Frontmatter / Text before first headline
@ 2012-02-01  7:41 Jambunathan K
  2012-02-01 13:43 ` Nicolas Goaziou
  2012-02-01 18:46 ` Achim Gratz
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 3+ messages in thread
From: Jambunathan K @ 2012-02-01  7:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Orgmode; +Cc: Nicolas Goaziou


> that is every element between the beginning of the parsed area and its
> first headline.

I have trouble understanding what the real purpose of the "text before
the first headline" is. It looks to me more like a placeholder for
capturing the "Frontmatter" [1]. 

I have also trouble understanding what the rightful position for it is:

Should it be like:
(a) Title, Initial Text, TOC, Chapters
	Or like
(b) Title, TOC, Initial Text, Chapters

Currently org-latex does a (b). 

But if I look at an organization of a typical document, I am inclined to
think that it should be (a). It is also my contention that Table Of
Contents is relocatable only as a means to achieve (b).

I am wondering if you would be interested in formalizing frontmatter in
Org documents. Backends will then be obligated to render the front
matter headings as "centered text".

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
<<document meta data contributes to Titlepage>>
* FRONTMATTER Abstract
  This is the document abstract

* FRONTMATTER Contents
<<toc>>

* Chapter1
* Chapter2
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Footnotes: 

[1] I see that documents - books as wells as theses - are roughly
ordered as follows:
	Title Page, Frontmatter, Chapters

TOC and other listings are considered as part of Frontmatter but act as
fences between the Chapter and preceding text.

- Title Page
,---- Frontmatter
| - Copyright notice
| - Abstract
| - Preface
| - Acknowledgements
| - Dedication
| - Table Of Contents
| - List of Tables, Figures and Illustrations etc
`----
- Chapter Texts
- References

-- 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread

* Re: Frontmatter / Text before first headline
  2012-02-01  7:41 Frontmatter / Text before first headline Jambunathan K
@ 2012-02-01 13:43 ` Nicolas Goaziou
  2012-02-01 18:46 ` Achim Gratz
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 3+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas Goaziou @ 2012-02-01 13:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jambunathan K; +Cc: Orgmode

Hello,

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I have trouble understanding what the real purpose of the "text before
> the first headline" is. It looks to me more like a placeholder for
> capturing the "Frontmatter" [1].

If you're talking about the first section in the parse tree, the e-ascii
back-end makes use of it: even if that part of the document, links may
have to be collected and displayed before the first headline.

Also, "Frontmatter" probably only makes sense for large
documents. I sometimes write documents that doesn't even have an
headline. Should they be considered as one big frontmatter? Where would
be the matter, then?

> I have also trouble understanding what the rightful position for it is:
>
> Should it be like:
> (a) Title, Initial Text, TOC, Chapters
> 	Or like
> (b) Title, TOC, Initial Text, Chapters
>
> Currently org-latex does a (b). 
>
> But if I look at an organization of a typical document, I am inclined to
> think that it should be (a). It is also my contention that Table Of
> Contents is relocatable only as a means to achieve (b).

Honestly, (b) is easier to achieve than (a), since TOC can be stuffed in
preamble (that is before reading the parse tree). Also, as it's
configurable, I don't think we should bother too much here.

> I am wondering if you would be interested in formalizing frontmatter in
> Org documents. Backends will then be obligated to render the front
> matter headings as "centered text".

What about using special blocks?

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
#+begin_abstract
This is the document abstract.
#+end_abstract
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

You can even use a drawer and define its export behaviour in
`org-export-format-drawer-function' (current exporter) or an equivalent.

Anyway, if it happens that tools to build complex documents are
missing[1], I agree that we should provide them, as long as they aren't
imposed to the user.


Regards,

[1] But, first, let's make sure that it's impossible, or at least very
difficult, with current ones.

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread

* Re: Frontmatter / Text before first headline
  2012-02-01  7:41 Frontmatter / Text before first headline Jambunathan K
  2012-02-01 13:43 ` Nicolas Goaziou
@ 2012-02-01 18:46 ` Achim Gratz
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 3+ messages in thread
From: Achim Gratz @ 2012-02-01 18:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
> I have trouble understanding what the real purpose of the "text before
> the first headline" is.

"When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither
more nor less."

-- Humpty Dumpty, "Through the Looking Glass and what Alice found there"

> It looks to me more like a placeholder for
> capturing the "Frontmatter" [1]. 
>
> I have also trouble understanding what the rightful position for it is:
>
> Should it be like:
> (a) Title, Initial Text, TOC, Chapters
> 	Or like
> (b) Title, TOC, Initial Text, Chapters
>
> Currently org-latex does a (b). 
>
> But if I look at an organization of a typical document, I am inclined to
> think that it should be (a). It is also my contention that Table Of
> Contents is relocatable only as a means to achieve (b).

That would depend a lot on the type of document and the publishing
culture it's intended for.  If we're talking books, then things are even
more complicated, as traditionally you'd have a bastard title(*) before
the actual title page.  The back of the actual title page (which would
be page 3 if it were numbered) almost always has some text, most often
the bibliographic entry.

(*) The bastard title is a relict from those times when you bought your
books as folded signatures as they were coming from the printer and you
had to cut and bind the book yourself if you were going to the trouble
and expense.  The title page(s) and front matter would be printed after
the rest of the book had already been off the press on their own
signature (you wouldn't know the page numbers for the TOC otherwise).

> I am wondering if you would be interested in formalizing frontmatter in
> Org documents. Backends will then be obligated to render the front
> matter headings as "centered text".

I'm not sure why you'd insist on "centered".

> - Title Page
> ,---- Frontmatter
> | - Copyright notice
> | - Abstract
> | - Preface
> | - Acknowledgements
> | - Dedication
> | - Table Of Contents
> | - List of Tables, Figures and Illustrations etc

The title page is considered part of the front matter in traditional
printing as it is printed on the same sheet as the rest of the front
matter.


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Waldorf MIDI Implementation & additional documentation:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfDocs

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 3+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2012-02-01 18:47 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 3+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2012-02-01  7:41 Frontmatter / Text before first headline Jambunathan K
2012-02-01 13:43 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2012-02-01 18:46 ` Achim Gratz

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