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From: Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net>
To: Karl Voit <news2042@Karl-Voit.at>
Cc: Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Org-mode syntax as a tool-independent MIME type (was: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type)
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2022 09:55:20 +0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87y1tdvppg.fsf@tec.tecosaur.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <2022-10-17T22-36-38@devnull.Karl-Voit.at>

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Hi Karl,

> For reasons explained in my Orgdown-related articles[1] I would
> propose to use this chance to introduce a different term for the
> Org-mode lightweight markup language in contrast to the Org-mode
> Elisp implementation in order to push the syntax in a tool-agnostic
> way.

Personally, I don’t see the need for a split. If anything, it seems harmful to
me. What I’ve taken to doing is referring to org-mode files outside Emacs simply
as Org files, and I think this works well for a number of reasons, not least because:
⁃ It creates a 1-1 corespondency with the file extension, think about how
  markdown is often referred to as “MD” due to the .md file extension.
⁃ I also see other people naturally talking about “Org files” online, so this is
  partway to being a de-facto convention
⁃ I think it’s less confusing having “Org” be related with “org-mode” than
  “OrgDown” (or similar), and should people familiar with one come across
  mention of the other it should thus reduce the chance of confusion.

What I do see the need for is the development of more resources on the format
itself (like the org-syntax document). Done right this should be a boon to both
org-mode and Org outside Emacs.

> We should not think only of GNU Emacs because there is a
> rising number of tools that do support text files in Org-mode
> syntax[2] which is also a huge advantage for users of GNU Emacs:
> collaboration, public awareness of the syntax, more tool support,

I’m glad to hear we’re of a similar mind! I’ve long argued that this direction
is worthwhile even for people who only ever touch Org inside Emacs via. flow-on

> I proposed the term Orgdown for the Org-mode syntax and also
> proposed various levels in order to provide sub-sets of Org-mode
> syntax[3] that are realistic to implement with finite effort. Using
> those OD-levels to come up with a formal definition (EBNF?) might
> play perfectly well with different parameters of the MIME type[4].
> In my opinion, this would be a huge step forward for the whole
> ecosystem that supports the same Org-mode syntax.
> If we do not keep the MIME type independent from the GNU Emacs
> Org-mode implementation, the overall use would be much smaller in
> the long run.

I find myself holding a contrary position, that we should keep the notion of an
“Org” format under the org-mode project to keep everything under one umbrella,
as it were.

Regarding the EBNF, I’m not sure about that. I plan on talking/working more on
parsers later.

We already state on <https://orgmode.org> that: “The de facto mimetype for Org
files is text/org”.

> Let’s use that to establish a broad base for this great lightweight
> markup language syntax!

I have a rough plan which is slowly unfolding, along these lines:
⁃ Stabilise the Org format and syntax document (I’m currently here)
⁃ Reformate the Syntactic features of Org into a DAG[1]
⁃ Possibly also add some editing/export-y features as a DAG interleaved with the
  syntactic DAG[1]
⁃ Identify sensible subgraphs as sub-formats, and publish
⁃ Either enabling org-mode’s syntax tests
  to be used with other parsers or building a language/test-framework
  independent set of tests.
⁃ A few other things


[1] See the attachments for a sample of what I’m talking about when I say
“syntactic DAG” etc.

All the best,

Timothy (‘tecosaur’/‘TEC’), Org mode contributor.
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/tec>.

[-- Attachment #2: org-dag-sample-1.png --]
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[-- Attachment #3: org-dag-sample-2.png --]
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  reply	other threads:[~2022-10-18  2:21 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 37+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-09-04 14:44 Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type TEC
2020-09-04 16:14 ` Gustav Wikström
2020-09-05  5:30 ` stardiviner
2020-09-05  5:50   ` Bastien
2020-09-05  5:53     ` TEC
2020-09-17  7:09       ` TEC
2020-09-17  7:18         ` hj-orgmode-1
2020-09-23  7:31           ` Bastien
2020-10-01  3:40             ` TEC
2020-10-01  5:21               ` Bastien
2020-10-01  5:48                 ` TEC
2020-10-01  6:46                   ` Bastien
2020-10-01 15:39               ` Wes Hardaker
2020-10-01 15:45                 ` TEC
2020-10-06 18:03                   ` Wes Hardaker
2020-10-06 19:03                     ` TEC
2020-10-06 20:39                       ` Palak Mathur
2020-10-24 12:09                     ` Bastien
2020-10-24 12:28                       ` Palak Mathur
2020-10-24 12:50                         ` Bastien
2020-10-24 13:09                           ` Leo Vivier
2020-10-24 13:38                             ` Bastien
2020-10-24 13:49                               ` Leo Vivier
2020-10-24 15:12                                 ` Bastien
2020-10-24 15:00                           ` Palak Mathur
2020-10-24 15:40                             ` Bastien
2020-10-24 15:57                               ` Palak Mathur
2020-10-14  9:52               ` Lennart C. Karssen
2020-10-14 14:22                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-10-17 20:46         ` Org-mode syntax as a tool-independent MIME type (was: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type) Karl Voit
2022-10-18  1:55           ` Timothy [this message]
2022-10-18  7:22             ` Org-mode syntax as a tool-independent MIME type Bastien
2022-10-18  8:13               ` Karl Voit
2022-10-21 11:44                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-18  8:05             ` Karl Voit
2022-10-21 11:41           ` Org-mode syntax as a tool-independent MIME type (was: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type) Ihor Radchenko
2021-03-23  3:00 ` Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type Timothy

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