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* usage, ideas, suggestions, actually a braindumnp
@ 2006-04-27  9:53 nielsgiesen
  2006-04-27 10:30 ` Carsten Dominik
  2006-05-19 12:20 ` Carsten Dominik
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 4+ messages in thread
From: nielsgiesen @ 2006-04-27  9:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode


What's below is  a mixture of a description of  my org-usage and ideas
on further elaboration  of org-mode, which have partly  come up during
this writing. Pardon  me if it's kind of an  unorded brainstorm (it is
evident  from this  that I  am one  of the  person really  in  need of
org-mode).

* Main story 	
Just discovered org-mode  about a week ago (on  #emacs).  Since then I
have  been a  proud user.   Am using  it for  professional as  well as
personal use.  For  professional use, I am using it to  make a kind of
html-template  which   I  will  tweak  for   automatic  generation  of
subsequent  html in  the  future. Sure  things  will come  up in  that
respect.   Further,   I  am   trying  to  use   it  as   a  bug/wanted
feature-tracking system.   As the only  developer is me, and  my input
mostly comes from one source only, this is feasible (I just let no one
else touch my list).  Some things have come up because of this use.  I
use a table for listing the  bugs and features (to export to csv), and
descriptions  are   put  in   headlines  below  that,   with  possible
subheadlines. One thing I needed was  a way to link the fields and the
headlines,  based  on  some  unique  identifier, and  possibly  in  an
automatic way.  The cleanest way I have  come up with so  far is using
the  radio link.   That  way I  just put  a  bug number  in the  table
automatically targeting the description .  That way I can export it to
csv -> xls (in oocalc), so the person I communicate with sees only the
bug number itself, and not  also the brackets, that are exported as-is
to csv.  On  this, see infra. For the generation of  a bug number link
for in the headlines I  have created the following small function, and
set it to a keyboard shortcut:

(defcustom org-bug-number 0
"number of current bug"
:type 'number)

(defun org-insert-bug-number (&optional skip-to)
  "Increment the org-bug-number with 1 and insert it at point as an internal link.

With numerical prefix  argument, insert the prefix number  at point as
an internal link.  If this number is greater than the current value of
org-bug-number, update org-bug-number to this value."

  (interactive "p")
  (insert-string "<<<"
      (cond ((> skip-to org-bug-number) (setq org-bug-number skip-to))
	    ((eq skip-to 1) (setq org-bug-number (1+ org-bug-number)))
	    (t skip-to)) ">>>")
  (org-ctrl-c-ctrl-c))

...I might revise  this with the use of an alist  or something, so you
can  have different  bug numbers  associated with  different projects,
based on which .org file you visit.

I  am thinking  of a  good way  of how  to integrate  this,  and other
typical bug-track-sheet stuff (such  as status: TODO/DONE...) with the
headlines. Automatic  generation of  a headline on  creation of  a new
bug-row is  not a  good option,  I believe, since  some things  are so
self-evident from the small description given in the table that giving
the  bug   a  seperate   headline  would  just   be  an   exercise  in
repetition. However, when a good and unique link between table row and
headline could be established, an update of the one based on the other
might be convenient. Perhaps this whole approach is flawed, because it
is based  on the table concept  for representing bugs  (my bosses just
said  like: ,,Kan  je die  bugs niet  gewoon ff  in  een Excel-sheetje
stoppen?''--trans:  ``can't  you  just  put  these bugs  in  an  Excel
sheet?''),  so that I  just began  drawing a  table. Maybe  some table
export function  to the view  generated by C-c  C-r would be  a better
idea. But  then, how do  you know which  words will have to  appear in
which field?  This would require setting properties to (sequences of),
which calls  for a different  syntax. More thinking  and code-studying
necessary...

I think using only TODO and DONE  is a good approach, as too much time
is  easily   wasted  figuring  out  for  yourself   what  the  precise
qualification should be.  
* Some other things that have come up during usage:
** option for clean export view of timestamps
** option to leave timestamps out in export function
** option to leave tags out in export function.
** org-export-to-LaTeX
** make follow-mode the default as customization option; 
for myself, I have just hacked the code to have follow-mode always on.
** strip links when unexportable as link
Export description, or, when lacking, only the content of the link.

When data can  be retrieved back from an  exported format, this would
be included /as/ /option/, as one will e.g. want to communicate to and fro
with csv tables.
** improvement of the outcome of C-h m would be welcome.
- all the self-inserting commands are not of great interest. Better
  skip them, or put at least put them at the end.
- things such as "Calls `(org-cycle t)'" do not give a reference;
  better say "Calls org-cycle with argument t".	

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread

* Re: usage, ideas, suggestions, actually a braindumnp
  2006-04-27  9:53 usage, ideas, suggestions, actually a braindumnp nielsgiesen
@ 2006-04-27 10:30 ` Carsten Dominik
  2006-04-27 13:02   ` nielsgiesen
  2006-05-19 12:20 ` Carsten Dominik
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2006-04-27 10:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: nielsgiesen; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


On Apr 27, 2006, at 11:53, nielsgiesen@ibbu.nl wrote:
> * Some other things that have come up during usage:
> ** option for clean export view of timestamps

Do you have an example of what you mean?

> ** option to leave timestamps out in export function

I guess, leave them out together with keywords like DEADLINE, SCHEDULED 
and CLOSED, right?

> ** option to leave tags out in export function.

Useful, yes, or at least make them look better.

> ** org-export-to-LaTeX

Very unlikely that I will do this effort.  Thought about it long ago 
and decided it was too much work for too little gain.

> ** make follow-mode the default as customization option;
> for myself, I have just hacked the code to have follow-mode always on.

Really, you want this always on?  OK, I will make it an option.  How 
did you hack it?  You can of course use org-agenda-mode-hook to turn it 
on.

(add-hook 'org-agenda-mode-hook
   (lambda () (setq org-agenda-follow-mode t)
              (org-agenda-set-mode-name)))

> ** strip links when unexportable as link
> Export description, or, when lacking, only the content of the link.

Example where this goes wrong?

>
> When data can  be retrieved back from an  exported format, this would
> be included /as/ /option/, as one will e.g. want to communicate to and 
> fro
> with csv tables.

I did not understand this one, sorry.


> ** improvement of the outcome of C-h m would be welcome.
> - all the self-inserting commands are not of great interest. Better
>   skip them, or put at least put them at the end.

This is fixed in Emacs 22, I don't know how to change it in Emacs 21, 
apart from turning off the optimized table editor.

> - things such as "Calls `(org-cycle t)'" do not give a reference;
>   better say "Calls org-cycle with argument t".

I have fixed this case, let me know if you find other occasions.

Thanks for your comments.

- Carsten

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread

* Re: usage, ideas, suggestions, actually a braindumnp
  2006-04-27 10:30 ` Carsten Dominik
@ 2006-04-27 13:02   ` nielsgiesen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 4+ messages in thread
From: nielsgiesen @ 2006-04-27 13:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: emacs-orgmode


On Apr 27, 2006, at 11:53, nielsgiesen@ibbu.nl wrote:
>> * Some other things that have come up during usage:
>> ** option for clean export view of timestamps
>
>Do you have an example of what you mean?

Timestamps without the angular brackets. Actually not that important,
although it might be nice in exporting tables, as applications using
this have their own ways of playing with such data. But then you'd
have to convert them back to the org-form when importing such a
table. 

>> ** option to leave timestamps out in export function

>I guess, leave them out together with keywords like DEADLINE, SCHEDULED 
>and CLOSED, right?

If they are grouped, yes.

>> ** option to leave tags out in export function.

>Useful, yes, or at least make them look better.

That was the idea behind the 'clean timestamps' too, though here it is
more important.

>> ** org-export-to-LaTeX

>Very unlikely that I will do this effort.  Thought about it long ago 
>and decided it was too much work for too little gain.

If time and use so merits, I will look into this myself.

>> ** make follow-mode the default as customization option;
>> for myself, I have just hacked the code to have follow-mode always on.

>Really, you want this always on?  OK, I will make it an option.  How 
>did you hack it?  You can of course use org-agenda-mode-hook to turn it 
>on.

For lack of time to sniffing through the code and really understand it
to   come    up   with   an    elegant   solution,   I    simply   put
(org-agenda-follow-mode t) near the end of each function called by C-c
a * (where * stands for each letter that I use at the moment).

>(add-hook 'org-agenda-mode-hook
>   (lambda () (setq org-agenda-follow-mode t)
>              (org-agenda-set-mode-name)))

Thanks, that's way better than my ugly hacks! 

>> ** strip links when unexportable as link
>> Export description, or, when lacking, only the content of the link.

>Example where this goes wrong?

It is when you put a link inside a table, which is exported to csv and
just gives  the raw ascii  code in the  exported table. Sorry  for not
being clear enough.

Another one, where the link is valid, but just the layout not as
expected, is inside a headline to html, :

* DONE eerste bandje volledig begrijpen <<<1>>> DEADLINE: <2006-04-23
  Sun> 

exports as

<H2><a name="sec-1">1 <SPAN CLASS="DONE">DONE</SPAN> eerste bandje volledig begrijpen &lt;<span class="target">1</span> &gt; <SPAN CLASS="DEADLINE">DEADLINE:</SPAN> &lt;2006-04-23 Sun&gt; </a></H2>

which looks like

1 DONE eerste bandje volledig begrijpen <1 > DEADLINE: <2006-04-23 Sun>

notice the whitespace between 1 and >

>> When data can  be retrieved back from an  exported format, this would
>> be included /as/ /option/, as one will e.g. want to communicate to and 
>> fro
>> with csv tables.

>I did not understand this one, sorry.

When a link like  [[link][description]] is exported as such when
the link is in a table, there  are two sides to this: 

1. Looks ugly in csv 

2. You would want to  preserve the link  (so not strip it  of its
brackets)  when  having  made  changes  to the  table  in  some  other
application, and then imported it again.

As these two sides are irreconcilable, I have opted to make only use
of internal radio links inside a table, which do not look ugly when exported.


One more point concerning link-export: 

1. when exporting a  link to a location in another  file to html, this
will create a  link in the html page which  cannot retrieve its target
(which probably  is due to  html itself, but  I do not know  html that
well). Such links be better left out.

Thank you very much for your answers, and I will be happy to continue
contributing.

Regards,

Niels.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread

* Re: usage, ideas, suggestions, actually a braindumnp
  2006-04-27  9:53 usage, ideas, suggestions, actually a braindumnp nielsgiesen
  2006-04-27 10:30 ` Carsten Dominik
@ 2006-05-19 12:20 ` Carsten Dominik
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 4+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2006-05-19 12:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: nielsgiesen; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi Niels,

my comments below refer to org-mode version 4.30.


On Apr 27, 2006, at 11:53, nielsgiesen@ibbu.nl wrote:

> * Some other things that have come up during usage:
> ** option for clean export view of timestamps

Timestamps and the associated keywords have now their own CSS classes.  
Also, if timestamp(s) and keywords are the only things on a line, a 
line break is inserted at the end of the line.  Hope this is sort-of 
what you need.

> ** option to leave timestamps out in export function

(setq org-export-with-timestamps nil)


> ** option to leave tags out in export function.

(setq org-export-with-tags nil)
>
> ** make follow-mode the default as customization option;
> for myself, I have just hacked the code to have follow-mode always on.

(setq org-agenda-start-with-follow-mode t)

> ** strip links when unexportable as link
> Export description, or, when lacking, only the content of the link.

I have not worked further on this yet, unfortunately.  But it is on my 
list.

- Carsten

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2006-05-19 12:20 UTC | newest]

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2006-04-27  9:53 usage, ideas, suggestions, actually a braindumnp nielsgiesen
2006-04-27 10:30 ` Carsten Dominik
2006-04-27 13:02   ` nielsgiesen
2006-05-19 12:20 ` Carsten Dominik

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