* Intention of verbatim text?
@ 2023-01-03 13:20 c.buhtz
2023-01-03 17:32 ` Daniel Fleischer
2023-01-03 18:58 ` Tim Cross
0 siblings, 2 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: c.buhtz @ 2023-01-03 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Emacs-orgmode
Hi,
in org you can have inline verbatim and code text elements like this.
Example with =verbatim= and ~code~.
I would like to understand what "verbatim" really means. What is the
semantic behind it? What content should go in there?
I'm aware of the separation of content and its presentation.
I'm also aware of the different renderings in my Emacs. Booth are
monotype but with different colors.
The org html export to create both with <code> tag. So in HTML output
there is no difference between verbatim and code anymore.
I also read a lot about the HTML tags code, pre, kbd and samp.
I wonder that maybe I totally misunderstand the intention of
"verbatim"?
The background of my question is that I have my own
org-to-html-converter [1] and try to decide how to treat =verbatim=.
Which HTML tag should I use.
Thanks
Christian
[1] -- <https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread* Re: Intention of verbatim text? 2023-01-03 13:20 Intention of verbatim text? c.buhtz @ 2023-01-03 17:32 ` Daniel Fleischer 2023-01-03 18:58 ` Tim Cross 1 sibling, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Daniel Fleischer @ 2023-01-03 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: c.buhtz; +Cc: Emacs-orgmode c.buhtz@posteo.jp [2023-01-03 Tue 13:20] wrote: > in org you can have inline verbatim and code text elements like this. > > Example with =verbatim= and ~code~. > > The org html export to create both with <code> tag. So in HTML output > there is no difference between verbatim and code anymore. > > I also read a lot about the HTML tags code, pre, kbd and samp. > > The background of my question is that I have my own > org-to-html-converter [1] and try to decide how to treat =verbatim=. According to https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32284477 they have different semantics but are rendered the same (by default); they could be rendered differently, depending on a website's CSS. Maybe use the semantics for your own org-html converter. -- Daniel Fleischer ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: Intention of verbatim text? 2023-01-03 13:20 Intention of verbatim text? c.buhtz 2023-01-03 17:32 ` Daniel Fleischer @ 2023-01-03 18:58 ` Tim Cross 2023-01-04 7:50 ` c.buhtz 1 sibling, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread From: Tim Cross @ 2023-01-03 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode <c.buhtz@posteo.jp> writes: > Hi, > > in org you can have inline verbatim and code text elements like this. > > Example with =verbatim= and ~code~. > > I would like to understand what "verbatim" really means. What is the > semantic behind it? What content should go in there? > > > I'm aware of the separation of content and its presentation. > I'm also aware of the different renderings in my Emacs. Booth are > monotype but with different colors. > > The org html export to create both with <code> tag. So in HTML output > there is no difference between verbatim and code anymore. > > I also read a lot about the HTML tags code, pre, kbd and samp. > > I wonder that maybe I totally misunderstand the intention of > "verbatim"? > > The background of my question is that I have my own > org-to-html-converter [1] and try to decide how to treat =verbatim=. > Which HTML tag should I use. > > Thanks > Christian > > [1] -- <https://codeberg.org/buhtz/hyperorg> IMO (and it is just my opinion, not that of the org developers), the main use of verbatim (i.e. =text=) is to escape any further interpolation as org markup. It basically says, when exporting, export 'as is' with no further processing. Consider a situation where you want to write A_B, but don't want it to be interpreted as A with a subscript B. There are a number of ways to handle this. One is to set the #+OPTION to ^:nil and turn off the behaviour for the whole file or you can use =A_B= to just turn it off for that use (though this does have other possibly unintended side-effects, such as a font change, but I'm really just trying to illustrate the point here). I would have to look more closely at the output of the HTML export to verify your assertion that both verbatim and code are rendered the same. With respect to 'phrases', I guess there is no real difference in outcome. However, the standard HTML code tag does not preserve line breaks. Traditionally, for blocks of code, the code tag would also be wrapped in the pre tag. However, things have evolved and now it is much more common to see just the code tag with an additional CSS class which is used to manage the preservation of line breaks and whitespace. From a purely tecnical 'correctness' standpoint, I would argue that =text= should be rendered as <pre>text</pre> and not <code>text</code>. When exporting data, we don't have any semantic markers/information for =textg=, so wrapping it in a semantic tag like <code> is IMO incorrect as we are imposing a semantic interpretation without justification. . ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: Intention of verbatim text? 2023-01-03 18:58 ` Tim Cross @ 2023-01-04 7:50 ` c.buhtz 2023-01-04 8:25 ` Tim Cross 0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread From: c.buhtz @ 2023-01-04 7:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode Thanks for all your feedback. On 2023-01-04 05:58 Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote: > argue that =text= should be rendered as <pre>text</pre> I did this before but then got them as paragraphs. Not sure how the correct term of this is in HTML. pre is not inline but handled as an own paragraph so that you have an extra line in the rendered HTML output. > markers/information for =textg=, so wrapping it in a semantic tag > like <code> is IMO incorrect as we are imposing a semantic > interpretation without justification. I also agree that the current org html export is not specific enough here. My current solution is to convert ~code~ to <code>code</code> and =verbatim= to <code class="verbatim">verbatim</code>. In that case the user can decide himself how to render them. In my default CSS I would render the ~code~ in monospace with a light gray background (different from the whole page background) and =verbatim= with monospace only but without extra background color. Kind Christian ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: Intention of verbatim text? 2023-01-04 7:50 ` c.buhtz @ 2023-01-04 8:25 ` Tim Cross 0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Tim Cross @ 2023-01-04 8:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: c.buhtz; +Cc: emacs-orgmode <c.buhtz@posteo.jp> writes: > My current solution is to convert ~code~ to <code>code</code> and > =verbatim= to <code class="verbatim">verbatim</code>. > > In that case the user can decide himself how to render them. In my > default CSS I would render the ~code~ in monospace with a light gray > background (different from the whole page background) and =verbatim= > with monospace only but without extra background color. > I think I would agree in an approach which leverages the power of CSS is the best approach. My own personal preference would be to have as much of the rendering/formatting of various elements managed by CSS classes as possible as this would make it much easier for users to change how things are rendered by modifying the CSS classes. Frameworks like Bulma (https://bulma.io) show how powerful just using CSS can be. Much easier to modify a CSS class than change a tag. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-01-04 8:34 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 5+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2023-01-03 13:20 Intention of verbatim text? c.buhtz 2023-01-03 17:32 ` Daniel Fleischer 2023-01-03 18:58 ` Tim Cross 2023-01-04 7:50 ` c.buhtz 2023-01-04 8:25 ` Tim Cross
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