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From: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>
To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: UTC or not UTC for timestamps in the past ([FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode)
Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2023 11:48:30 +0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <tqnnuv$t91$1@ciao.gmane.io> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <871qnkiqwu.fsf@tsdye.online>

On 24/01/2023 09:44, Thomas S. Dye wrote:
> Max Nikulin writes:
>>
>> I believed that [2023-01-22 Sun 08:29@+1100] unambiguously suggests 
>> offset from UTC.
> 
> Not for a casual programmer like me. The timestamp alone might easily be 
> read as 11 hours ahead of local time. Nevertheless, Org is certainly 
> free to interpret it as relative to UTC.

My primary concern is that I might be wrong assuming that format like 
[2023-01-22 Sun 08:29@+1100] with offset in respect to UTC is reciprocal 
identity  mapping to UTC.

Of course there are a lot of people unaware of UTC. Org users may be 
educated by the manual and by hints in UI pushing toward time fixed in 
respect to UTC when "global" timestamp should be added. (In the sense of 
e.g. Lunar eclipse or an on-line meeting, not to confuse with set of 
events appointed on specific date but starting at the same local time in 
each location).

I am afraid of confusion with repeater intervals, but syntax has not 
fixed yet.

So we had different types of ambiguity in mind. Base time for offset was 
unclear for you, I was writing about mapping to UTC. Your point should 
be taken into account during consideration of storage format.

I still believe that something like [2023-01-21 Sat 21:29:00Z] and 
[2023-01-22 Sun 08:29@+1100] may be used to store timestamps 
interchangeably.

>> Are there local references that may confuse users? I mean something 
>> like 9 hours
>> ahead of Moscow (Asia/Kamchatka) used in USSR.
> 
> I think 9 hours ahead of a timezone with a potentially variable offset 
> from UTC has the potential to sow confusion, yes.

If someone has examples of local time offsets (unrelated to UTC) widely 
used in some area, please, post them.

MSK+3 style was not a real issue because daylight saving time was active 
during the same period in the whole country and iron curtain was 
efficiently isolating most of people form variety of DST rules in other 
areas.



  reply	other threads:[~2023-01-24  4:50 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 328+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-01-13  8:56 [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Daryl Manning
2023-01-13 12:51 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14  6:27   ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-14 12:46     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14 11:18   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 11:26     ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-14 11:42       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15  5:11         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15 13:41           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 16:43             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-16 18:37               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 17:40                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-18  9:59                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:25                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 16:24                   ` [SOLUTION] " Jean Louis
2023-01-20 10:57         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 11:29           ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-20 11:36             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 15:10               ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-20 11:39             ` Fraga, Eric
2023-01-20 11:48               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-21 12:55                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-21 13:41                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-21  9:21               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-21 10:14                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-22 11:49                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 22:51             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 13:03     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 13:22       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 19:10         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 11:21           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 11:30             ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-16 11:39               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 15:43                 ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-16 19:07                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 19:22                     ` Robert Horn
2023-01-16 19:41                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 20:47                         ` Robert Horn
2023-01-16 21:02                           ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 21:48                             ` Robert Horn
2023-01-17  8:53                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17  3:55                           ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-17  8:22                             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-17  9:15                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17  9:45                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-18  9:15                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 11:43                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-18 12:02                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 21:16                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19  5:29                                           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19  6:25                                             ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-19 14:17                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 15:55                                                 ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21 13:10                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-21 16:23                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21 13:50                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-21 14:31                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-21 16:55                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-19  7:23                                             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 14:32                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 20:09                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 23:02                                                   ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-19 23:51                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  0:24                                                       ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-20  3:46                                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  6:14                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-27  6:06                                                             ` Sterling Hooten
2023-01-27  6:09                                                               ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-27  9:54                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-27 21:04                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-29  4:09                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-29  6:21                                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-29  6:46                                                                       ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-29 14:10                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-30 19:37                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31  0:53                                                                         ` Thomas S. Dye
     [not found]                                                                         ` <0597910b-9b01-3c0c-5d06-da171e0de4cd@gmx.at>
2023-01-31  6:08                                                                           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-29  6:31                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-30 20:36                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-30 20:38                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-29 20:26                                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-30 20:55                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-30 21:54                                                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-31  7:04                                                                           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31  8:14                                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-31 13:02                                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-01-27 11:09                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-27 12:49                                                                 ` Sterling Hooten
2023-01-27 13:00                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-27 15:03                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-30 13:08                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-27 20:58                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-30 11:25                                                                 ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-31 11:48                                                                   ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 12:19                                                                     ` Daryl Manning
2023-01-31 12:41                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
     [not found]                                                                         ` <CAL9aZksf8AGF=dXg0KAtLPyu1ATt1fLpvdsjN6GMCuK2KRQ56w@mail.gmail.com>
2023-01-31 13:33                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 13:22                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31 13:46                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 19:59                                                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 12:42                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 15:28                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:30                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 20:12                                                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  5:46                                                                           ` tomas
2023-02-01  7:29                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  7:52                                                                             ` Tim Cross
2023-02-01  8:32                                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  8:46                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01  9:38                                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-02-01 10:15                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 14:53                                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:36                                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 10:46                                                                                   ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-01 14:43                                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:45                                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  3:05                                                                                       ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  8:59                                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01  9:40                                                                                 ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Stefan Nobis
2023-02-01  9:45                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 14:38                                                                                 ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Jean Louis
2023-02-01 16:50                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-03 15:48                                                                                   ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Stefan Nobis
2023-02-04  5:07                                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  9:06                                                                             ` Stefan Nobis
2023-02-01  9:20                                                                               ` tomas
2023-02-01  9:48                                                                                 ` Stefan Nobis
2023-10-29  1:04                                                                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-02-06 15:34                                                                                   ` Marcin Borkowski
2023-02-06 17:03                                                                                     ` tomas
2023-02-07 21:08                                                                                     ` Jean Louis
2023-10-29  1:02                                                                               ` Jean Louis
2023-02-01  7:00                                                                           ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Thomas S. Dye
2023-02-01  7:41                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-31 17:56                                                                     ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Fraga, Eric
2023-01-31 18:13                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-31 18:22                                                                         ` Fraga, Eric
2023-01-31 18:56                                                                     ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Greg Minshall
2023-02-01 12:48                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 12:52                                                                         ` tomas
2023-02-02  4:49                                                                           ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-31 20:41                                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-31 23:50                                                                     ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-01 13:01                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-04 22:33                                                                         ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-04 22:49                                                                           ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-05 10:38                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 11:56                                                                     ` Christian Moe
2023-02-01 12:20                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
     [not found]                                                                         ` <87o7qdsf7h.fsf@christianmoe.com>
2023-02-01 13:26                                                                           ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda)) Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 13:51                                                                             ` tomas
2023-02-01 21:57                                                                               ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Heinz Tuechler
2023-02-01 22:50                                                                                 ` Samuel Wales
2023-02-02  9:01                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  3:22                                                                                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  7:45                                                                                   ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO Heinz Tuechler
2023-02-02  8:33                                                                                     ` tomas
2023-02-02  9:37                                                                                       ` Heinz Tuechler
2023-02-04 15:44                                                                                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  5:35                                                                                 ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info tomas
2023-02-02  8:56                                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 15:16                                                                             ` POSIX TS spec reverses the meaning of TZ offset compared to ISO (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Max Nikulin
2023-02-02  8:34                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02 13:59                                                                                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-02-02 14:06                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-01 15:41                                                                         ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info " Jean Louis
2023-02-02  8:38                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-03 11:31                                                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-02-04 10:58                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-04 19:32                                                                                 ` Jean Louis
2023-02-05  9:14                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  3:46                                                                     ` Timothy
2023-02-02  9:12                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  9:12                                                                         ` Timothy
2023-02-02  9:20                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-02-02  9:27                                                                             ` Timothy
2023-02-02  9:38                                                                         ` [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info Stefan Nobis
2023-01-30 12:30                                                               ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-30 15:30                                                                 ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-30 15:38                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-30 15:48                                                                     ` Greg Minshall
2023-01-20  4:03                                                   ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20  5:39                                                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  7:28                                                       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20  8:11                                                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20 15:29                                                           ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 22:56                                                             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20  9:35                                                       ` Fraga, Eric
2023-01-20 10:48                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20  6:46                                                     ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-20  7:34                                                       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20  8:17                                                       ` Tim Cross
2023-01-20 12:17                                                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 16:09                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-20 16:56                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 20:37                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21  0:14                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-21  0:37                                                                   ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-21  5:53                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-21 15:55                                                                       ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-22 12:14                                                                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-22 13:35                                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-22 14:09                                                                           ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-20 23:38                                                           ` Tim Cross
2023-01-21  6:21                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-21 21:29                                                               ` Tim Cross
2023-01-22  5:50                                                                 ` UTC or not UTC for timestamps in the past ([FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode) Max Nikulin
2023-01-22  6:17                                                                   ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-22  8:35                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-22 16:54                                                                       ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-23  6:28                                                                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-23 16:04                                                                           ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-24  2:34                                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-24  2:44                                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-24  4:48                                                                                 ` Max Nikulin [this message]
2023-01-24 19:18                                                                                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-24  9:34                                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-24 16:41                                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-26 15:37                                                                             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-26 16:31                                                                               ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-27 21:21                                                                                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-22  7:48                                                                   ` Tim Cross
2023-01-24 17:09                                                                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-24 19:20                                                                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-24 20:50                                                                       ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 10:35                                           ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-19 17:57                                           ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-21 13:51                                             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 17:09                                   ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-17  8:45                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-19 16:56                             ` Robert Horn
2023-01-19 17:44                           ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-19 17:48                           ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-17 15:37                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18  9:29                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:11                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 21:31                         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-19 10:40                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 17:28                     ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-17 19:49                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:21                         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18 16:20                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-20 16:27                         ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-19 17:33                   ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-16 20:25               ` Tim Cross
2023-01-17  9:07                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 15:24             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18  9:34               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-18 16:07                 ` Jean Louis
2023-01-19 10:43                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-19 14:37                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-15 20:43         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 11:25           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-17 15:19             ` Jean Louis
2023-01-18  9:38               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16  5:01     ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 12:31       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 20:32         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-16 20:51           ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-17  9:12             ` [FR] Allow BC years in timestamps (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-13 19:06 ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Jean Louis
2023-01-14  7:12   ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14  9:32     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 11:08       ` Russell Adams
2023-01-14 11:35         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 12:00           ` Russell Adams
2023-01-14 12:16             ` [FR] Allow end date and max repeat count for timestamps with repeaters (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15  1:09               ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-15 13:45                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 23:49                   ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-15 23:53                     ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-16 13:01                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 12:19             ` [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 12:21               ` Russell Adams
2023-01-14 12:31                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 11:30       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 14:09         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 14:38           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 14:48             ` tomas
2023-01-14 15:05               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 16:50                 ` tomas
2023-01-14 17:06                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 17:13                     ` tomas
2023-01-15 19:54                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14 21:52                     ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15 13:52                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-20 14:34                         ` Alexander Adolf
2023-01-15 20:03                       ` Jean Louis
2023-01-15 19:52                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 13:11                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 20:56                   ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15 20:24                     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-15  4:37                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15  5:03                 ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15 20:28                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 13:17                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 11:55       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14 13:50         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-14 16:50           ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14 20:30             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15  4:00               ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15  7:53                 ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15 19:26                   ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16 13:20                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 14:00                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-14 13:08     ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14 16:58       ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-14 19:43         ` Tim Cross
2023-01-15  6:37           ` tomas
2023-01-15 14:07           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 20:43             ` Tim Cross
2023-01-16  5:20               ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 13:29                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 17:30                   ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-16 17:53                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-16 13:27               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-15 19:14           ` Jean Louis
2023-01-16  4:20             ` Max Nikulin
2023-01-15 19:12         ` Jean Louis
2023-01-14  5:14 ` Samuel Wales
2023-01-14  5:51   ` Tom Gillespie
2023-01-14  6:40     ` tomas
2023-01-26 15:24     ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Ihor Radchenko
2023-01-26 16:08       ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] Fraga, Eric
2023-01-26 16:28         ` Thomas S. Dye
2023-01-26 23:40       ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Tom Gillespie
2023-01-30 10:13         ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ; ] " Greg Minshall
2023-01-30 13:05         ` Org mode timestamps on the Moon ;] " Ihor Radchenko

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