From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id IOPcLoAkQ2LOmwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:23:44 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id wGBOJ4AkQ2LRiQAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:23:44 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E7DA34B7D for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:23:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:46280 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nZDh8-0004Hi-EH for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 11:23:42 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:51866) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nZDg9-0004F5-2l for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 11:22:41 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:44478) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nZDg7-0007ZT-69 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 11:22:40 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nZDg5-0005lX-5x for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Mar 2022 17:22:37 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org From: Max Nikulin Subject: Re: citations: org-cite vs org-ref 3.0 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2022 22:22:27 +0700 Message-ID: References: <87wngosqvm.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geo-emacs-orgmode@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 28 X-Spam_score: 2.8 X-Spam_bar: ++ X-Spam_report: (2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA=2.309, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1648567424; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=Dog+obv3QB1RJaFJTz/SULklD0pSwoiJqiHstFkym7E=; b=LD7oyyJTytulxL7BbXRmpOP++q8wrDVn5x3hOFDVObPvdOF97peGOpmufwbrQXSAmE9Sax cQWj+pJPeKSZjG/672vaBIFus/vE9kXXGTlQUUQ9M+PKDCh7+cgxjBWhLnv+LdydgaU6Dy he+D5tH3WJXbMrzO8f//5SO1EV0BTlNSHscKWlsvyXz64Wn6PHVDz0zrBgjY0eJGH0kC6o NdUWkK4wGeUgKrnxcE9Qf0plEw8t+HNSdVSyzUljuQj2pBGixttrTxJUUfP6s7Ij8o3ntt 7kL8SiFGfOgmAC0Lmc85LPkQGsK049BH48S4GgBr3NVVz0mTrZr4QZp3upguXw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1648567424; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=YyizC57RQEyKLO/pHN3biP4hXTcocxnOE8TIUm4Zwzd6dV8ryhjlqqJBcJgtCbcZQBhS+j moIuld98yoJzzLi+n8rVFIgmLG8jrLpodlv+EkWnldly22+PMOfjMRw8KYLv4XHDyrdwFp SgYtLtJv50LPZxs9hzSzxl2iX1X3R+KE8nwrH53YQZSKprmR7x4nQtWUc2Vts+4arMIkuj xR3yjZg/QdcSo59Cie7T2m7VG4RywPBu/bXSk3Pdrtc75GlCVutmbtOaqsP3dlb8T45KV0 JYiTSSrYFy0fdtzA4csnMN0nllujXyX3gYdePRXTvbo6nQj1PQTSSeF5b2UWkQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 2.13 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 5E7DA34B7D X-Spam-Score: 2.13 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: trC8arZiFqr6 On 28/03/2022 20:16, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 8:37 AM Max Nikulin wrote: >> >> John, in another message (Sun, 27 Mar 2022 13:00:40 -0400) >> https://list.orgmode.org/m24k3jnq0k.fsf@andrew.cmu.edu you clearly >> stated a technical limitation that is a real reason why org-cite is not >> an option for you and for some other users: performance has not been >> optimized for large BibTeX databases. It is deserved to be mentioned. > > FWIW, Ihor posted a patch related to this a week or so ago. I am optimistic concerning that patch since a couple of users confirmed improvement, but it is up to John to decide if it is acceptable in comparison to org-ref. I am unsure concerning startup time. >> You even have managed to convince me that, besides adding missing style >> names, some existing ones should be adjusted. noauthor/bare for citeyear >> example makes for me much more sense ... > > This does need some attention, but there are wrinkles here. > > Citeyear is specific to author-date styles, while noauthor is intended > to be more general. Anyway citation style is rather specific for a particular CSL style. I tried some styles: https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/master/ieee.csl https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/master/american-physics-society.csl nature.csl science.csl and for all these styles even "author" is meaningless since they are numeric styles. So it is not more general. Switching CSL style means necessity to update styles in each citations (unless it is possible to specify global or per-cite mapping). It seems modifiers are set of boolean flags (positive "year" or negative "suppress-author") in citeproc.el, set of values in natbib, and a kind of hierarchy in org-cite. From my point of view, set of constrains (flags) is the most general variant in this list. > I think it's probably a good idea to add "year" to the latex processors too. I agree. Negations are more confusing when an author needs just year. > "Year" would be much less portable. That doesn't mean that "year" > couldn't be legitimate, in the sense of "I really need the year here". I would say that if a citation style has no year than a warning should be spat, but year should not appear since it is against the style. Unsure if it is useful to have special command or style "query" that can insert e.g. year, journal, or any other field disregarding style to ensure that the text and the bibliography reference have not diverged, but it is rather for descriptive text than for a citation. > But that raises another question: How will citeproc-el know where this > year is coming from, and how the year has to be formatted? That will > have to be hardcoded in the processor as styles contain no information > about this. A fallback style (for the particular citation, for the whole document or in global user preferences) might be specified for formatters missed in the main style. I have tried the following: obt.bib: @ARTICLE{schawlow1958iao, author = {Schawlow, Arthur Leonard and Townes, Charles Hard}, title = {Infrared and Optical Masers}, journal = {Phys. Rev.}, year = {1958}, volume = {112}, pages = {1940--1949}, month = {Dec}, doi = {10.1103/PhysRev.112.1940}, issue = {6}, publisher = {American Physical Society}, } obt.org: #+bibliography: obt.bib # #+cite_export: csl # #+cite_export: csl /usr/share/citation-style-language/styles/chicago-author-date.csl # #+cite_export: csl /usr/share/citation-style-language/styles/american-physics-society.csl - Default: [cite:@schawlow1958iao]. - text: [cite/text:@schawlow1958iao]. - noauthor: [cite/noauthor:@schawlow1958iao]. - year/bare: [cite/year/bare:@schawlow1958iao]. #+print_bibliography: I am familiar with bst language used by BibTeX and I am surprised that initials instead of full names are not enforced by CSL styles. Emphasis and bold markers may appear in plain text export. Behavior of styles is not uniform in respect to adding (unbreakable?) space before citation.