From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id GLFEAULdsF/tIgAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 07:48:18 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id 6JzJOEHdsF/3LAAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 07:48:17 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 731E19403A9 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 07:48:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47716 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keClj-0005Ko-B3 for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 02:48:15 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52146) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keClA-0005Kd-0D for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 02:47:40 -0500 Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]:52053) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keCl7-00047Y-RC for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 02:47:39 -0500 Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id w7so2368991pjy.1 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 23:47:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-followup-to:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Wghmn13uy7NCrLD3dU3MdwDgjSKCO+GVWtF/bcPCLsI=; b=hmjg2oBZAhrgULGn/6WVU0T35oIdYwL+eB8pckT/pNqeSn4hR/Z/cmE9B1v5eA9A8b pSduAir5SEB4vRAc95xY6YsgX5rlS1vGsMSTP0KVitBn/yStakRHtIAHtOwcw3L46mq8 YWsvB+UHH0S1N9tLyc1QbTSYGqyGhn9Gf2NIL6TK3i/mviQ7Akinl1m57E0gB1a3FfHT G/viwK46n34T/BiQWVeA+3tDVaDC4cJKD8GhoAqNN4yG1K9MxlIz3U/ZEhvn+rzYWCFu msgIcm48hRiK+eSN0JRPjGCVU1JvWG2+nSFThALDA3RTjpKf8oD6NqlImC3lM8xqi1PM HjUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:mail-followup-to :date:in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Wghmn13uy7NCrLD3dU3MdwDgjSKCO+GVWtF/bcPCLsI=; b=GvLWLm93kYkwiZOBXW0e5uRRzdj6o7XLdDCx6QcuZw38Vyq3YWFUPXOaITLWhzrPUA ZuggbqDQRCWkx7bPdPhR4MZlgvtY6qu1a74ui1zEuzQ22v1JA5krKB2o3HRnnMEuZORd MXLayFdioCBhO3zKSIIgacQ+0hyyUMPZ2ZcAqyW6XxYx7SUL04i0RkrHEfKZQq0Pulbv XS0EdH7bpXJqPxLb7qKgrHoxuP/irJ6NBtNx7+JdAPBarinXO4rxFB1AAYwRJeJumwvs MNzILeSfdOtTVa2yz62COg4uq0FdjFsa7dmEi+dsBZWCqgRdzASr4GV/Emq1F4iMLzD0 4Ivw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Q+qxHsIigrF1fTNEsGylJY7ZKkOsC8mJo59J7D988fIbZ6I3C W4JylOAmf0I7qFiHgpAFfNE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx0JrXbwBTNTOWnCFpQ1uqpQYMaeW0T77bYflNzHeKGw15EoU3hqmnM8m4N/EpaNlYUvK1k/g== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:82c3:b029:d6:c377:c87d with SMTP id u3-20020a17090282c3b02900d6c377c87dmr8530802plz.37.1605426456293; Sat, 14 Nov 2020 23:47:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (node-1w7jr9qt8om65uhgipqyd4ojd.ipv6.telus.net. [2001:569:7c1c:f700:64b3:d05a:e458:2a39]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 138sm14525236pfy.88.2020.11.14.23.47.35 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 14 Nov 2020 23:47:35 -0800 (PST) From: David Rogers To: Jean Louis Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? References: <2020-11-13T18-23-43@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> Mail-Followup-To: Jean Louis , Karl Voit , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Karl Voit Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 23:47:31 -0800 In-Reply-To: (Jean Louis's message of "Sun, 15 Nov 2020 08:38:28 +0300") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036; envelope-from=davidandrewrogers@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1036.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Karl Voit , Karl Voit , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail (headers rsa verify failed) header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=hmjg2oBZ; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 1.09 X-TUID: 1A23RrHhAsnR Jean Louis writes: > * David Rogers [2020-11-15 01:44]: >> Hello >>=20 >> After reading several of the responses to this, I=E2=80=99ve started to= =20 >> wonder: Is >> electric-indent-mode broken for everybody because it contains a=20 >> bug or >> design flaw, or is electric-indent-mode working fine but simply=20 >> not suitable >> for every situation? >>=20 >> In other words, where is the =E2=80=9Cright=E2=80=9D place to fix this p= roblem? > > It was working in Org file automatically well and fine. > > As if user decides to indent, electric-indent would help the=20 > user: > > ** HeadingRET > > At this point below user may decide to indent: > > - First itemRET after RET > ^ > - the new line appears here > > User has to move the cursor to the point shown above for=20 > indentation > to begin. That is good as user decides it and it is text, it is=20 > not > programming language with special convention for indentation. > > Electric indent mode always worked like that, including in Org=20 > mode > without any problems. > > The change that is introduced in my opinion, and I did not look=20 > into > code, is changing how electric indent mode behaves specifically=20 > for > Org mode as somebody assumes that immediately after headingRET=20 > the new > lines should be indented, like if there is some special=20 > indentation > convention for Org mode. > > So without user deciding to indent, it does following: > > ** HeadingRET > - First line here >=20=20=20=20 > But there is no indentation convetion for Org mode of that kind=20 > that I > know. > > The Org file shown on https://orgmode.org/ does not follow that=20 > type > of indenting. > > Common indenting in Org mode is: > > * Heading > Text > ** Heading > Text > *** Heading text > Text > **** Heading > Text here > ***** Heading > Text > ****** Heading > Text > > AND if somebody likes to indent differently electric indent mode=20 > would help. > > Common indenting is not (other may tell me that I am wrong if=20 > this statement is wrong) > > * Heading > Text > ** Heading > Text > *** Heading text > Text > **** Heading > Text here > ***** Heading > Text > ****** Heading > Text > > The above change was introduced as default to many users and is=20 > not > conveniente. > > Especially not conveniente I find that I need to delete by using > backspace all the spaces inserted that I did not want after=20 > pressing > RET after inserting heading. > > Some people will insert ONLY heading as a test without any text. Thank you! You=E2=80=99ve really explained this clearly, and I=C2=A0underst= and=20 your point. Am I=C2=A0crazy to say that your last example of unwanted behavior is=20 easier for me to read and understand? (and to me the common=20 indenting is a hopeless mess?) But I=C2=A0can see potential problems with it too - a long paragraph on=20 a narrow screen would become hard to read and edit if there were=20 very many indent levels. And I=C2=A0have no idea how code blocks would=20 be affected because I=C2=A0don=E2=80=99t write any real code. If the new behavior really does what you showed under =E2=80=9CCommon=20 indenting is not=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, then I=C2=A0think I=C2=A0prefer the new= way for my own=20 use. And it makes sense to me that it should automatically work=20 like that. I=C2=A0think the cursor jumping all the way back to the left=20 margin after I=E2=80=99ve created a multi-starred heading makes no sense.=20 But I=E2=80=99m also likely to forget to consider things that might go=20 wrong with implementing a new plan, so I=E2=80=99m not a great judge. Does the new behavior =E2=80=9Cbreak=E2=80=9D something for you (causing er= rors=20 etc), or does it just look wrong? --=20 David Rogers