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[24.4.174.65]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a11-20020a170902eccb00b0016be834d544sm8777523plh.237.2022.07.07.08.37.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 07 Jul 2022 08:37:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "T.V Raman" To: briangpowell Cc: Ihor Radchenko , maciaschain@posteo.net, theophilusx@gmail.com, emacs-orgmode Subject: Re: Org mode export accessibility In-Reply-To: (briangpowell's message of "Thu, 7 Jul 2022 10:18:25 -0400") References: <87a6b8pbhg.fsf@posteo.net> <875ykwvmz7.fsf@posteo.net> <871qvioquw.fsf@gmail.com> <87czew3w5l.fsf@localhost> <87v8sn3obd.fsf@gmail.com> <87czevr9cn.fsf@posteo.net> <878rpj3dbq.fsf@localhost> <25273.49476.833965.837697@google.com> <87czeq7fjo.fsf@localhost> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2022 08:37:14 -0700 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=gb18030 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::536; envelope-from=raman@google.com; helo=mail-pg1-x536.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -175 X-Spam_score: -17.6 X-Spam_bar: ----------------- X-Spam_report: (-17.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1657208298; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=LUpsDyMX6cyANGbGlTmkTC9acLCwSQo8cRiDZe2NMOo=; b=dWVdSHPzQ7BucK5C5FXt+RpKmBkykuKx9CYBmkyQ5E1PA5BSzqENJWzIlgNHO3ytdsH/8U PdBkliyx1Nj0cZicktCSBn9dKIARwiZhfNAmZnMqbinXdFRpVGK3kppPYLyS7ZJ77HThOL EV3422FvMolrRcb/+69BwBCoWZMzQYMkRon86k26BmHBIlUE2OYplpilRUsymPUG9O0S0D LSPb/CSa522PFW3M++itA3nHkCurLE51zKCzHqgLsQQHxhzB7hazROglSlfoFWYjXMjMbs IzSkcaQs3gqWmAerh/f0tOrX9Li7JDXVQCIG5utOwroL6tm5qr4SmOpTXvTZtA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1657208298; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=VBEJa15f+9apny3guJb8c/Tk/IpHvwpOPWDNunXV/U3/mjpwotz7Hq6IiQxae2wdmUhzrC MGylQiCnYPcd7UXebIt4PMJyGyaxx9EsQHUocu4GNuOB+059y44YKV4mAJtrQgpnoOc8Lb Qan3Tkn7OsuvGi+C2lMRCuSuIK3wAEcBmnIR+TWtEOaoCE7pv3p1E5lsdeQ8kqeY6S5FhA 1b+eyxwp8x+MHNVeCisLtDavnKGFhqKGitSFvwYU6k4D66+73dAiWmOUzbO8z7aepR9yvj Sky/3EIjPp/dhRD7Ym0LJELr3nhMI82ubk1hMFI32+27POSa3R6H5epA415kYg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=google.com header.s=20210112 header.b=qmH9gmvD; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=google.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.45 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=google.com header.s=20210112 header.b=qmH9gmvD; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=google.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 17BB92D3E6 X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: PmZVGo8SeyIK briangpowell writes: P.S. Please dont quote me out of context. I did not say pdftex and pdflatex were not useful, I still rely on them heavily. > "[I suspect that the exported documents can similarly be improved to > reduce the amount of effort required from visually impaired users to > read > such documents. The question is what improvements can be made on > Org side.] > > Best, > Ihor" > > Very glad to hear from TV Raman, the creator of EmacSpeak, > > I'm not blind like TV but I was motivated to turn my a main OrgMode > buffer into an audio desktop like TV's > > But now back to the topic; much agree with Ihor, we should focus on > "what improvements can be made on OrgMode side" > > & TV's points are well made too: "pdftex and pdflatex were built in > the late 90's"--very true & they were rarely useful > > Suggest OrgMode make changes aimed at the "Lowest Common Denominator" > of accessibility--accessibility in the visual sense AND in the machine > or program processable sense or more exactly the "document convertible > sense"--I mean documents should be made firstly in a form that all > computers can easily navigate & present on computer screens and/or > audio desktops in addition to being readily able to print out > > TV's right, the usual pipeline of LaTeX->PDF can produce tagged & > useful documents but can an end user easily copy and paste the > document? How useful are pretty documents that run on proprietary > systems? Many PDF's can make simple processes like this very hard or > impossible--the documents can be very pretty but they can contain > control characters & special characters & even malicious code > > Suggest OrgMode outputs focus on creating "Lowest Common Denominator" > documents as output: > TeXinfo docs should be used as the LCD doctype--suggest you focus on > creating 1 document in Texinfo that you use to create all other sorts > of documents, when possible: > > Pipeline should be more like > OrgMode->Texinfo->TROFF||DTD/XML/HTML/XHTML->LaTeX/TeX->DVI||SVG->PS->PDF > > > * TeXinfo: https://savannah.gnu.org/projects/texinfo > https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo > > ** "Texinfo uses a single source file to produce output in a number of > formats, both online and printed (dvi, html, info, pdf, xml, etc.). > This means that instead of writing different documents for online > information and another for a printed manual, you need write only one > document. And when the work is revised, you need revise only that one > document. The Texinfo system is integrated well with GNU Emacs.=20 > > *** Texinfo docs can also be viewed & used by ALL end-users without > any issues--regardless of the power of their computer or monitor or > even if they're blind like TV Raman--he uses an audio desktop or > EmacSpeak--and the same docs can be printed on any printer & remain > navigable with "rn" & other simple news-reading software--or the > "info" program > > * Output formats currently supported by Texinfo: > https://www.gnu.org/software/texinfo/manual/texinfo/html_node/Output-Form= ats.html > <=3D> Info,Text,HTML,DVI,PostScript{PS},PDF,DocBook,XML > > ** Related/useful may be: "latex2nemeth"--a LATEX to Braille/Nemeth, > approach "Simple pictures in PSTricks are also supported in order to > produce tactile graphics": https://ctan.org/pkg/latex2nemeth > > On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 3:53 AM Ihor Radchenko > wrote: > > "T.V Raman" writes: > > > 1. Accessibility as word used in isolation has now become mostly > > meaningless, to be concrete one has to ask "Accessibility to > whom"?=20 > > > > 2. So in the following, everything I say is with respect to > users with > > visual impairments. > > This is exactly the perspective I was hoping to hear from you. > Though > this thread is not dedicated to visual impairments. (I guess you > also > did not touch the question of color blindness). > > > 3. It's incorrect to define "Accessibility" in terms of a > specific > > user access tool or technology -- that usage is marketing > jargon > > for a specific Access Solution like a screenreader --- so I > refrain in general from > > defining this in terms of Screenreaders. > > Yet, in order to simplify the efforts needed to read a document > exported > from Org mode one needs to use some kind of tool/technology. > Unless a > common standard exist in this area, we have to support at least > the most > common Access Solutions (prioritizing Free software, if possible). > > From you message, it does not look like there is any common > standard. > > > With those meta-thoughts out of the way: > > > > A: Org-generated documents are mostly well-structured documents, > and ... > > B: The LaTeX->PDF pipeline *can* produce tagged PDF with respect > to ... > > C: pdftex and pdflatex were built in the late 90's by a student > in ... > > D: All that said, it is likely still easier to go from org->HTML > ... > > Do I understand correctly that you have no issues with reading > documents > exported using current version of Org? > > > E: Finally, note that in (D) I said "machine processable" not > > "Accessible"; machine-processable is a pre-requisite to > "repurpose " > > what you publish, and making that result usable by different > user > > communities is a direct consequence of suche > machine-processability. > > I understand. But one can similarly say that .org files are > "machine > processable" and Org export code is not strictly necessary. Yet, > it ends > up extremely useful in practice. > > I suspect that the exported documents can similarly be improved to > reduce the amount of efforts required from visually impair users > to read > such documents. The question is what kinds improvements can be > made on > Org side. > > Best, > Ihor > --=20 Thanks, --Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research) =817=A94 Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 =950=DC8