From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id 2GfpOlxlxF8yRwAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 03:22:04 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id 0Ke/NlxlxF/rbwAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 03:22:04 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E7FFA940481 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 03:22:03 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:58518 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kjZlK-0002Ev-Ij for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 22:22:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42268) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kjZif-0002Eh-Qv for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 22:19:17 -0500 Received: from mout.gmx.net ([212.227.15.18]:41623) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kjZid-0002U0-FP for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Nov 2020 22:19:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=gmx.net; s=badeba3b8450; t=1606706353; bh=Sxul7sD8MBmMbr9uSuv24JhgWqeUlHUXxSGovRmKqRQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=RsWAtVE+3scY6lGT4V1gkaMf06fZIds4yM/5I97k3SrooIGCC8I/NF0j70lJTSERP PeTFtn4bfdPu9IhIcopcdvI/xhBka5vzOFCIhP5sFWluvxVVaJ9X8f3czT0F0LQpjd Qd2Y2Sx8hnzbPl0/ZtKikKyIayNVlaIkHaSRfxj8= X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c Received: from [213.165.168.94] ([213.165.168.94]) by web-mail.gmx.net (3c-app-mailcom-bs12.server.lan [172.19.170.180]) (via HTTP); Mon, 30 Nov 2020 04:19:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: From: Christopher Dimech To: Tim Cross Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 04:19:13 +0100 Importance: normal Sensitivity: Normal In-Reply-To: <87ft4ry2uq.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87ft4rrhad.fsf@kyleam.com> <87r1obyabn.fsf@gmail.com> <87lfejy80o.fsf@gmail.com> <87ft4ry2uq.fsf@gmail.com> X-UI-Message-Type: mail X-Priority: 3 X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:2kcYfG5RiOtS9wtDL13Axb5bVZsALi3CZhk74urTk+NwhUd8kyrk/M/UQPa2lAkxMjW83 DueAu+FQFx240c0xgByC0Xm/+SnyMxxJCPgpOzZ2RcTJFQVcNy20y0ZoJCN+L8MG6aCcLG+wLzg9 7i3vIpLrKo0HZbOqlS5YwWP5W2/qu3RsZSdp+uuEDaCqRhxzBusVaPUlR+SGY50QPQkGQ3OVcdoh z5XiO5XoUs3pfFt+CdyQD0d5sN9TA7Uxf47fTEv9JfzHAt1XW28gCoEBPxQHdkFL9Q71EEf8qN27 uI= X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:jMbb6fTGxqE=:nPHnBGuwKNRhxl7U8CtVKs BX50jpXXU86AceV/lQtAws6dGDKTEkhsyD3ktcVApmQv0SFM4HOn3jbharK8NNCOZCHeXgu7+ JykyA+w75rS8zlK/f/qoKm9exHzwbco0HbQezbAYr+jZ2ou/I7slt4UvID9jj7njiewRTpmY/ wsbLVOua2CaMFu65SRcAQ5Kplch1tjDjiLPSBxUGDafFvDbmwzFLR/bbtUds+02QEm0SVjKeZ Mj2Jm2tKu51G0nxBtqa9IhfmhO3ggHF6E6ZQZ/9XPIZ/ZedithyuEaLRzI7a8U/lVAYpun7oU xHcufwHCANxWpTVCjIJerMKFEFt5swEAGtQ9AvWfyN7wtB6qXT5/6l8IZ9NreIFzbhgh9awXk uvIlAtJisYlT/EzIjbdQOLegTsFjRN8CO91izDFyw3N9WUuUkUx8mClbb71r4ZhuiTzXEQrku 20M3mWKUaJPiBcfTvmH6DI7De/IgETTIuk56sdW6K0T6ECRMnaGLK5kWAonLI6j5rTSW/miac wi/OHzFjXBKmYAZYcSu+T9DKJ18deV9gTai0K2dzMXrKij/EZMcbR6FrQzGNnTaW35y9nVGmC 7xxEJt4A/4jaU= Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.18; envelope-from=dimech@gmx.com; helo=mout.gmx.net X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmx.net header.s=badeba3b8450 header.b=RsWAtVE+; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-TUID: OQ/XVC7TEkVQ > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 3:50 AM > From: "Tim Cross" > To: "Christopher Dimech" > Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variabl= e, overwriting user options > > > Christopher Dimech writes: > > >> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:59 AM > >> From: "Tim Cross" > >> To: "Christopher Dimech" > >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files vari= able, overwriting user options > >> > >> > >> Christopher Dimech writes: > >> > >> >> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 at 1:09 AM > >> >> From: "Tim Cross" > >> >> To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > >> >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files v= ariable, overwriting user options > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> daniela-spit@gmx.it writes: > >> >> > >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:51 PM > >> >> >> From: "Gyro Funch" > >> >> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it, "Kyle Meyer" > >> >> >> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > >> >> >> Subject: Re[2]: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-f= iles variable, overwriting user options > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 at 10:20 PM > >> >> >> >> From: "Kyle Meyer" > >> >> >> >> To: daniela-spit@gmx.it > >> >> >> >> Cc: "gyro funch" , emacs-orgmode@gn= u.org > >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-= files variable, overwriting user options > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >>daniela-spit@gmx.it writes: > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> From: "gyro funch" > >> >> >> >> [...] > >> >> >> >> >> If I'm not mistaken, all of the development is done by v= olunteers. > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> Perhaps you could help resolve your issue instead of ask= ing other > >> >> >> >> >> people, who are likely already overworked, to shoulder t= he burden. > >> >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> > Is there a mailing list for abuse? If I want abuse I sha= ll ask for it. > >> >> >> >> > Loser! > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >> I don't see anything that gyro said as abuse. Name calling= , on the > >> >> >> >> other hand, has no place on this list. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >One asks for help, and people tell you to go fix it yourself. = If there > >> >> >> >is any disrespect, you bring it upon yourselves. And now you = start. > >> >> >> >Another Gnu Goon. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I have found that people on this list are extremely friendly, c= ourteous, > >> >> >> and helpful. > >> >> >> I suggest that you look back at the way you asked for/demanded = help and > >> >> >> the various responses you gave in this thread. > >> >> >> Taking on an attitude of entitlement and showing a lack of resp= ect for > >> >> >> others, their perspectives, and efforts may not be the best way= to get > >> >> >> help. > >> >> > > >> >> > Nonsense. > >> >> > >> >> Not nonsense at all. You responses have become rude and unhelpful.= I can > >> >> understand how you may be frustrated by the bug reporting situatio= n, but > >> >> your response to that frustration has been to complain and be crit= ical in > >> >> a very non-constructive manner. You have now descended into name c= alling > >> >> and personal abuse. You are beginning to exhibit behaviour > >> >> which is not welcome here and which will result in people ignoring= your > >> >> posts. Multiple people have now pointed this out, which should mak= e you > >> >> stop and think rather than become emotional and respond defensivel= y. > >> >> > >> >> the ball is now in your court. How you respond will influence how = others > >> >> respond to your requests and suggestions going forward. > >> > > >> > Please be aware that it was pointed out that one can configure > >> > org-agenda-skip-unavailable-files to a non-nil value if she wants > >> > non-existing/unreadable files to be skipped. > >> > > >> > But that option isn't mentioned in the manual or the docstring of t= he > >> > org-agenda-files option. The problem is known and has been a sourc= e of great > >> > frustration, that's why it was introduced. > >> > > >> > Daniela is quite right. If multiple people don't want to help her,= that's > >> > fine, many others will. > >> > > >> > >> The issue at this point wasn't about whether there is a problem with = how > >> org manages org-agenda-files or even the acknowledged weakness in the > >> documentation which needs a patch. The issue here is about attitude a= nd > >> being respectful. > >> > >> We can disagree on things. Opposing views are a good thing provided t= he > >> expression of these opposing views is done with respect. This means n= o > >> personal attacks, no calling names, no personal abuse. > >> > >> We all have different levels of sensitivity and some have thicker ski= n > >> than others. However, once multiple people express the opinion that a= n > >> attitude is not appropriate for the list, the responsibility is with = the > >> originator to consider that feedback and either adjust to meet commun= ity > >> expectations, leave the community or continue without change and acce= pt > >> whatever consequences (if any) the list decides is appropriate. > > > > Ok, let me deal with this. But please, can we be better ourselves. A= m > > sure she wanted to send a report so things get better for others. She > > knew how to solve the problem by only putting a list of files that exi= st. > > > > Furthermore, we are updating the manual on the available option that > > addressed her problem, a detail that was most likely obscure. Some go= od > > she has done. We are not doing the work specifically for her, > > but to everybody. Agreed? > > > > Agreed. My only issue was when things degraded into personal attacks and > insults. While I don't subscribe to the belief every opinion is valid, I > do subscribe to the belief everyone has the right to express an opinion, > provided it is respectful. I also believe when someone expresses an > opinion in a manner which lacks such respect, we need to call it out so > that the individual becomes aware of what is expected or when what they > have written may not have come across correctly. This is a > multi-cultural community where English is not necessarily the posters > native language and communication can break down because of cultural and > language differences. As far as I'm concerned, both the underlying issue > relating to org-adenda-files is mostly dealt with and expectations > regarding communication standards have been communicated. Because of cultural and language differences we should allow some slack. I understand your point. Still mailing lists are there to help, so if people are busy they should remember that mailing lists are there to respond, not to tell them that we have no time and they better bugger off. When users' messages and consistently rude, I find no problem making a removal. Let's not be too quick. Have no doubt you can understand this. > I say mostly dealt with because I'm not sure that org *should* update > the org-agenda-files list when a missing file is identified and org has > not been told to ignore missing files. I need to experiment with this to > clarify my position, but based on what I've read in the thread which > clarified the issue, I suspect org should report a warning, but not > modify the variable in a permanent manner by writing it to the custom > section. It could set the variable for the current session if that is > required to prevent other issues, but not store it for future sessions. > > I don't think the original bug report was very clear on precisely what > the issue was. This is not uncommon with bug reports, but I suspect > language differences may have played a role here. Yes. > -- > Tim Cross > >