From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id cGGYMStF2mMdLQAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 11:55:39 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id wEiZMCtF2mMmlwAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 11:55:39 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E6F7AFCD for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2023 11:55:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNAdF-0001g3-Qp; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 05:46:25 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNAdD-0001fL-Rh for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 05:46:23 -0500 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNAdC-0006OS-3B for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 05:46:23 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pNAd7-0001Ac-S2 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 11:46:17 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org From: Max Nikulin Subject: Re: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 17:46:09 +0700 Message-ID: References: <87tu0mjb24.fsf@tsdye.online> <63ca1283.170a0220.5bc81.0fdd@mx.google.com> <87pmb9k8oi.fsf@tsdye.online> <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost> <2150768.1675077958@archlinux> <87tu063ox2.fsf@localhost> <87h6w63jgg.fsf@localhost> <86wn51g661.fsf@gmail.com> <87357pn57t.fsf@localhost> <86sffpg1bv.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.4.2 Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <86sffpg1bv.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geo-emacs-orgmode@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 27 X-Spam_score: 2.7 X-Spam_bar: ++ X-Spam_report: (2.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA=2.309, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.09, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1675248939; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=PmCXaiu8lPKJEbpSAXEhlkBRgAWbuyLgwU9GHH38COWzF7xkmYUrHcFPTOecsENMcmflfI UOi1absvB6C7npMt6jPsQeo5GyrxsKNvqoaV0aLYrSLyh847qSw3zrYY6Mz7skOyFiCTye kLuKxolNpNSNrj5f7lNy2hGvXoBbH4zZKbfRfXO0Ap9Dy1ilIue0ca9Sf71UhtWKWmGxaO e+xbgXlc7Y5Lk+77tifE2O7Aq51OoYLVOfq79whW9g5DvpySjhdrH/mrNIpXfF1WUVQecX Ap55nXY2MWcPRlcWwx7SnX8w1VqE78zCg0zQeoOcWr6o3EvB1Dl9Em2Wycnz3g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none) ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1675248939; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=MPuSCbEv8sY73TbH5hrYm6rsUK6YOFA0qbdzgtp0dOI=; b=n86Cir8kA2/AnqxIbISpUmjOszIiA9qzsACB5Buk8uWqSiuoanotMS88rBVDtAwuUUfbLM YjT4gCaYahDH+ZjuBfEbKQl4RH0xfpcc60IaOdI/juOfkNiMq366YzaxRNm6fcEbY4v/zY oI8ssWiCMJcrUxKLHKfJxgDN1c9nRKDkTCWa3F1u3DmoGUUT8qmK35TtLsNoqz8yeFI/2P 1NAAbRf2dn923ZI5AHlasEolC9Vv/j01K3moyRoi5dFUX+D1qKBp67vzsJLWSNF7LumMlQ beV8NO2zvdVDuZtN+Pt/4B87Sx5GS3rpIcFUg05toVjjoM1xrQIfrCSi7QGT7Q== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none) X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 4.12 X-Spam-Score: 4.12 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7E6F7AFCD X-TUID: L8vmwadrc/Ew On 01/02/2023 16:38, Tim Cross wrote: > This, combined with the reduced readability of such > time stamps and increased possibility of user confusion leads me to > question if allowing time stamps with both offset and time zone together > in the one time stamp is worthwhile. Readability should not suffer if time offset is optional. It may be omitted for non-ambiguous local time. Time offset may even improve readability if you are looking at a timestamp with time zone unknown to you. Sterling posted the following links (originating from the same group): https://tc39.es/proposal-temporal/docs/ambiguity.html https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sedate-datetime-extended/ What I do not like is that disambiguation is option of conversion, not of timestamp. > For instance, it does not address: > > * Future time given as a local time in some specified time zone, > where changes to the definition of that time zone (e.g., a > political decision to enact or rescind daylight saving time) > affect the instant in time corresponding with the timestamp. In this sense I like Python's approach with fold=1 or fold=2 despite in general JavaScript Temporal proposal looks more flexible. https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0495/