From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id kIMiOE7yjmCPaAEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 02 May 2021 20:41:18 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id qK7KM07yjmD5FwAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 02 May 2021 18:41:18 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65413143A4 for ; Sun, 2 May 2021 20:41:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:56060 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ldH1p-0006hs-4w for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 14:41:17 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56750) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ldH0h-0006fP-3N for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 14:40:07 -0400 Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:33908) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ldH0e-0007m4-Uu for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 14:40:06 -0400 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ldH0c-000AJ7-1p for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 02 May 2021 20:40:02 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org From: Jim Porter Subject: Re: [POLL] Setting `org-adapt-indentation' to nil by default? Date: Sun, 2 May 2021 11:31:55 -0700 Message-ID: References: <878s4x3bwh.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.12.0 In-Reply-To: <878s4x3bwh.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geo-emacs-orgmode@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: 28 X-Spam_score: 2.8 X-Spam_bar: ++ X-Spam_report: (2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD=1, FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA=2.309, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.248, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1619980878; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=2TAFu4ZAQbvxGpaxMsmwPiPyTcCcMe4VirLGIwxz0jQ=; b=sDaRADse4Cw1+dVx8psDXv67/sBLne5e7rarYlQfBmAnfz3DOdOLSF6PxbZPdyqP+WwRQe 6ERhqrWX4gYGh26dlrbd8ruI5rTysgAaIAxPlPMmI2eLP07I+Eg4YpGOPHg6ZL7NO7LJmS Qt+DCZ443xRKkz+eB8YWZZAgcqZtenfIlE6NDZm//cH1ElZYM4NJZ6zBX/2C4DmVOomwyw ZKmpcEyuFseEHuDcQ2SsBZrMZz4Dp1dbr4Rvt4r2itn25FIj4hyDyMJcdqo73GAPsVmtF4 jwWi4uu90C2izmw6CIBmz669ku/OCKEHCx/kBKJlNaMsuVtpua4eiiHvpkGPSg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1619980878; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=ZVhp3XjZwq1ujCalxg2Odp4BdzAuZYpp+NCygFO7nAl+qeL7rKMj59ZxJg85wwuRknIDIw 4G5vw4F5EIhgTlZLfWHDfanjWBqxcJVLPhnuVE9j4+Cch0SUXaAHdKT1ENb+xqrllXnGRB Zqcu5nwkOOP2uiq19wZwwh0oR3g/+tktg2v/Apq8ckqcZsi6IUWm7UQJnVfkDknAiwnHO0 hVLoRdy/8bDRz7sm/J8rTXzuNjlZMe3xrpuT6+SHovdV6jy+fehpWZsHYiTq3vyi0GhRjk JoTKXNnnJdXdv+i9bl4/8Qk6WTcrKRkoqy8S9SMPKescM5yTXSCIkOK72LjIMg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 0.64 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), No valid DKIM" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 65413143A4 X-Spam-Score: 0.64 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: djHeNT/x1plA On 5/1/2021 11:09 PM, Bastien wrote: > With `electric-indent-mode' being activated by default in Emacs, the > current behavior is that RET after a headline moves the point below > the beginning of this headline, not the beginning of the line, which > might surprise users. > > Indentation is quite sensitive: what do you think of setting a new > default value of nil for `org-adapt-indentation' in Org 9.5? I much prefer the current behavior as of 9.4.5. I'll try to explain my reasoning. Of course like anyone, I'm biased, and got used to indenting the text under a heading (pre-9.4) simply because that's where it ends up if I hit TAB; in most other modes, TAB indents a line to where it "should" be, so I reasoned that text under a heading should be indented. Visually, I find indented text easier to scan. When my org document is fully-expanded, I can still quickly glance at the left margin to see when the outline level changes. It's much harder for me to do so when there's a bunch of text that's flush with the left margin. `org-indent-mode' can also do this, but I took to heart the Org Mode motto ("Your life in plain text"): I try to ensure my org files look as similar as possible regardless of whether they're opened in Emacs or a plain text editor. Hence, I put the indentation in the actual org file (and use `auto-fill-mode' to wrap the text)[1]. This makes it easier for me to send a non-Emacs-using colleague one of my org files while ensuring it's (somewhat) readable for them. Finally, as someone who primarily uses Emacs to write software, I find the current behavior to be more consistent with the other modes I use most often. In all programming modes I'm familiar with, hitting RET will create a new line, indented to the appropriate depth. For a whitespace-dependent language like Python, this is really the *maximum* depth that would make sense. However, compared to Org Mode, python-mode has an advantage: if I hit RET and the indentation isn't what I want (e.g. I was writing an `if' block and now I'm done with it), I can hit TAB repeatedly to cycle indentation levels. Org Mode does this when you've typed the "* " for a heading (or plain list), but not for a blank line. If I'm typing some text below a heading and hit RET to write some more, I might realize that I *actually* want a new heading. I could try to type "* ", but as I'm already indented, Org Mode rightly treats that as a plain list. Currently, I just hit undo and then try again with C-RET to make a new heading, but it might be nice to allow cycling indent levels on an otherwise-empty line. This reasoning might not apply for users who primarily use Emacs to edit text documents, as I'm sure the indentation logic there is different from editing source code. In that case, you could perhaps say that `org-adapt-indentation' == t is for programmers, and == nil for writers. :) Ultimately, I'm not sure this will convince anyone who disagrees, and I'm not even sure my *goal* is to convince people (so long as I'm still able to configure things the way I like). I just wanted to provide a perspective from someone on the other side of the fence. - Jim [1] This doesn't quite work for links specified like [[url][title]], but I see that as just a minor hiccup.