Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[TEC]

Hi everyone,

Prompted by the fact that Markdown is registered as a MIME type
(RFC7763) and perusing the MIME registration procedure (RFC6838),
I wonder if it may be possible to register Org as a MIME type?

There are a few parts of RFC6838 in particular which give me hope, 
such
as:
> [§4.9] universal support and implementation of a media type are 
> NOT a
> requirement for registration.

I'm guessing the main barrier wold be a the lack of a published
specification --- I'm guessing a complete version of
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html published under the 
main
site (i.e. https://orgmode.org/standard.html) would be required.

Looking for other uses of the .org extension, there doesn't seem 
to be
much. The main result is from "Lotus Organiser", which seems to be 
a
(discontinued) PIM from IBM which used .org as its file type in 
the 1992
release. Other than that it seems that Yamaha and SoundBlaster 
have used
it as an extension for organ audio samples.

If it does seem possible to have text/org formally added as a mime 
type,
I would love to push this.

Please let me know what you think.

All the best,

Timothy.

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Gustav Wikström]

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That would be very nice indeed.

/Gustav
________________________________
From: Emacs-orgmode <emacs-orgmode-bounces+gustav=whil.se@gnu.org> on behalf of TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, September 4, 2020 4:44:50 PM
To: org-mode-email <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Subject: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type


Hi everyone,

Prompted by the fact that Markdown is registered as a MIME type
(RFC7763) and perusing the MIME registration procedure (RFC6838),
I wonder if it may be possible to register Org as a MIME type?

There are a few parts of RFC6838 in particular which give me hope,
such
as:
> [§4.9] universal support and implementation of a media type are
> NOT a
> requirement for registration.

I'm guessing the main barrier wold be a the lack of a published
specification --- I'm guessing a complete version of
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html published under the
main
site (i.e. https://orgmode.org/standard.html) would be required.

Looking for other uses of the .org extension, there doesn't seem
to be
much. The main result is from "Lotus Organiser", which seems to be
a
(discontinued) PIM from IBM which used .org as its file type in
the 1992
release. Other than that it seems that Yamaha and SoundBlaster
have used
it as an extension for organ audio samples.

If it does seem possible to have text/org formally added as a mime
type,
I would love to push this.

Please let me know what you think.

All the best,

Timothy.


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Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[stardiviner]

I would like to see this result too. Great to know this :)

TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Prompted by the fact that Markdown is registered as a MIME type
> (RFC7763) and perusing the MIME registration procedure (RFC6838),
> I wonder if it may be possible to register Org as a MIME type?
>
> There are a few parts of RFC6838 in particular which give me hope, 
> such
> as:
>> [§4.9] universal support and implementation of a media type are 
>> NOT a
>> requirement for registration.
>
> I'm guessing the main barrier wold be a the lack of a published
> specification --- I'm guessing a complete version of
> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html published under the 
> main
> site (i.e. https://orgmode.org/standard.html) would be required.
>
> Looking for other uses of the .org extension, there doesn't seem 
> to be
> much. The main result is from "Lotus Organiser", which seems to be 
> a
> (discontinued) PIM from IBM which used .org as its file type in 
> the 1992
> release. Other than that it seems that Yamaha and SoundBlaster 
> have used
> it as an extension for organ audio samples.
>
> If it does seem possible to have text/org formally added as a mime 
> type,
> I would love to push this.
>
> Please let me know what you think.
>
> All the best,
>
> Timothy.


-- 
[ stardiviner ]
       I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express.

       Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/
       IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner
       GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Bastien]

Hi,

stardiviner <numbchild@gmail.com> writes:

> I would like to see this result too. Great to know this :)

Well, there is no "result" expected yet, because we did not yet
agreed to make a formal request.

Let's discuss this with care, and consider all possible outcomes.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[TEC]

Just a quick note from me.

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
> Let's discuss this with care, and consider all possible 
> outcomes.

This is /exactly/ what I was hoping to prompt with this email.
I think it would be a nice idea (assuming feasibility), but it's
certainly not something to rush.

All the best,

Timothy.

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[TEC]

I'm still hoping for that discussion :P

To the Org community, if you have thoughts on this - please share them
:)

Timothy.

Me earlier:
> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>> Let's discuss this with care, and consider all possible outcomes.
>
> This is /exactly/ what I was hoping to prompt with this email.
> I think it would be a nice idea (assuming feasibility), but it's
> certainly not something to rush.

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[hj-orgmode-1]

  I do not have much insight into all the possible outcomes (i.e. I am 
clueless about such outcomes) except one outcome - orgmode MIME type 
gets registered.  I think it would serve well the proliferation and 
popularization of org-mode. I.e. I do not see any negatives, only 
positives. After successful registration, I don't think anyone would 
really complain that their "Lotus Organiser" or organ audio samples do 
not get processed as usual.

  AFAIC, push this.

  H J

On 9/17/20 9:09 AM, TEC wrote:
> I'm still hoping for that discussion :P
>
> To the Org community, if you have thoughts on this - please share them
> :)
>
> Timothy.
>
> Me earlier:
>> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>>> Let's discuss this with care, and consider all possible outcomes.
>> This is /exactly/ what I was hoping to prompt with this email.
>> I think it would be a nice idea (assuming feasibility), but it's
>> certainly not something to rush.

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Bastien]

Hi,

hj-orgmode-1@hj.proberto.com writes:

> I do not have much insight into all the possible outcomes (i.e. I am
> clueless about such outcomes) except one outcome - orgmode MIME type
> gets registered.  

If there is absolutely zero burden put on the shoulders of Org's
maintainers, then I'm all for it.

> I think it would serve well the proliferation and
> popularization of org-mode. 

Agreed.

Is anyone willing to check that there are no constraints?

Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Andrea]

Hi,

What are the pros?

About the cons: maybe we need to look more into the requirements.

I am looking at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2048 and the one that
concerns me a little is 2.2.6: I guess somebody would need to write a
bit of docs about security concerns. Or you can go the way Markdown did
it: from https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7763#section-2

"Security considerations:

      Markdown interpreted as plain text is relatively harmless.  A text
      editor need only display the text.  The editor SHOULD take care to
      handle control characters appropriately and to limit the effect of
      the Markdown to the text-editing area itself; malicious Unicode-
      based Markdown could, for example, surreptitiously change the
      directionality of the text.  An editor for normal text would
      already take these control characters into consideration, however.

      Markdown interpreted as a precursor to other formats, such as
      HTML, carries all of the security considerations as the target
      formats.  For example, HTML can contain instructions to execute
      scripts, redirect the user to other web pages, download remote
      content, and upload personally identifiable information.  Markdown
      also can contain islands of formal markup, such as HTML.  These
      islands of formal markup may be passed as they are, transformed,
      or ignored (perhaps because the islands are conditional or
      incompatible) when the Markdown is processed.  Since Markdown may
      have different interpretations depending on the tool and the
      environment, a better approach is to analyze (and sanitize or
      block) the output markup, rather than attempting to analyze the
      Markdown.
"

Do they have an org-babel?

Thanks,

Andrea

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Andrea]

Hi,

What are the pros?

About the cons: maybe we need to look more into the requirements.

I am looking at https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2048 and the one that
concerns me a little is 2.2.6: I guess somebody would need to write a
bit of docs about security concerns. Or you can go the way Markdown did
it: from https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7763#section-2

"Security considerations:

      Markdown interpreted as plain text is relatively harmless.  A text
      editor need only display the text.  The editor SHOULD take care to
      handle control characters appropriately and to limit the effect of
      the Markdown to the text-editing area itself; malicious Unicode-
      based Markdown could, for example, surreptitiously change the
      directionality of the text.  An editor for normal text would
      already take these control characters into consideration, however.

      Markdown interpreted as a precursor to other formats, such as
      HTML, carries all of the security considerations as the target
      formats.  For example, HTML can contain instructions to execute
      scripts, redirect the user to other web pages, download remote
      content, and upload personally identifiable information.  Markdown
      also can contain islands of formal markup, such as HTML.  These
      islands of formal markup may be passed as they are, transformed,
      or ignored (perhaps because the islands are conditional or
      incompatible) when the Markdown is processed.  Since Markdown may
      have different interpretations depending on the tool and the
      environment, a better approach is to analyze (and sanitize or
      block) the output markup, rather than attempting to analyze the
      Markdown.
"

Do they have an org-babel?

Thanks,

Andrea

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[TEC]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> If there is absolutely zero burden put on the shoulders of Org's
> maintainers, then I'm all for it.

From the look of things, there's just effort in the initial 
creation.

>> I think it would serve well the proliferation and
>> popularization of org-mode.
>
> Agreed.

This is the main reason why I'm a fan of the idea :)

> Is anyone willing to check that there are no constraints?

I've read through https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6838 and I 
couldn't see
any constraints placed on us beyond the initial registration's 
requirements.

For that, I think a formal syntax specification would be needed. 
Perhaps
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html will do? It looks 
complete.

I'm hoping we could then use https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7763
(registration of text/markdown) as a template, where we could just 
link
to the syntax specification.

Perhaps it could be worth putting the syntax spec under the main 
site as
something like orgmode.org/syntax-spec.html.

I've also been considering spinning off the manual into a bit of a
specification document (e.g. less of a guide / how-to, stripped 
down to
just the bare information), so perhaps
orgmode.org/specification.html#syntax ? I'd really like some 
second
opinions.

> Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?

In about two months, I am.

It looks like creating and draft and then emailing it to
media-types@iana.org would probably be the best approach.

All the best,

Timothy.

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Bastien]

Hi Timothy,

TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

>> Is anyone willing to check that there are no constraints?
>
> I've read through https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6838 and I couldn't
> see any constraints placed on us beyond the initial registration's
> requirements.

You register once and for all?  Is there some red tape involved in
maintaining the registration?

> For that, I think a formal syntax specification would be
> needed. Perhaps https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html will
> do? It looks complete.

We should first read https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html
and carefully check that it is up to date and still accurate, then
make it more user oriented (for now it more developers oriented.)

I'm ready to work on this before the end of the year.

> Perhaps it could be worth putting the syntax spec under the main
> site as something like orgmode.org/syntax-spec.html.

I would not go into this direction: as you know, I'd like the home 
of orgmode.org to be just one page (index.org/html) and move other
pages to Worg.  So let's not move org-syntax.org to the website,
it is good as a worg resource.

> I've also been considering spinning off the manual into a bit of a
> specification document (e.g. less of a guide / how-to, stripped down
> to just the bare information), so perhaps
> orgmode.org/specification.html#syntax ? I'd really like some second
> opinions.

This would be too many docs to maintain.

>> Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?
>
> In about two months, I am.

Okay, thanks!  Let's work on stabilizing Org syntax and reconsider the
registration idea then.  I will also ping future maintainers on this.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[TEC]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> You register once and for all?  Is there some red tape involved 
> in
> maintaining the registration?

Assuming I haven't misread/missed anything, the only thing that we 
might
cause a change is if the specification changes - but since it 
looks like
we can just link to our specification we probably wouldn't even 
need to
do that.

>> For that, I think a formal syntax specification would be
>> needed. Perhaps https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html 
>> will
>> do? It looks complete.
>
> We should first read 
> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html
> and carefully check that it is up to date and still accurate, 
> then
> make it more user oriented (for now it more developers 
> oriented.)

I see. Would there be someone well suited to check that everything 
is
accurate? I wouldn't feel confident auditing the whole document by
myself.

> I'm ready to work on this before the end of the year.

Marvellous!

>> Perhaps it could be worth putting the syntax spec under the 
>> main
>> site as something like orgmode.org/syntax-spec.html.
>
> I would not go into this direction: as you know, I'd like the 
> home
> of orgmode.org to be just one page (index.org/html) and move 
> other
> pages to Worg.  So let's not move org-syntax.org to the website,
> it is good as a worg resource.

Mmm. My thoughts on having lots on Worg haven't changed, I was 
just
thinking it might seem more 'official' / better if the page were 
nearer
to the site root.

>> I've also been considering spinning off the manual into a bit 
>> of a
>> specification document (e.g. less of a guide / how-to, stripped 
>> down
>> to just the bare information), so perhaps
>> orgmode.org/specification.html#syntax ? I'd really like some 
>> second
>> opinions.
>
> This would be too many docs to maintain.

This was partly motivated from it sometimes being annoying to just
check what forms an element can take and not finding it easy to 
see in
the manual.

Yea, maintaining /another/ file doesn't seem like a good idea 
though...

>>> Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?
>>
>> In about two months, I am.
>
> Okay, thanks!  Let's work on stabilizing Org syntax and 
> reconsider the
> registration idea then.  I will also ping future maintainers on 
> this.

Sounds good! Thanks for being open to the idea :)

All the best,

Timothy.

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Bastien]

TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> I see. Would there be someone well suited to check that everything is
> accurate? I wouldn't feel confident auditing the whole document by
> myself.

Well, "we" of course includes Nicolas and other core contributors, but
anyone is welcome.  This should not be done by a single person.

> Mmm. My thoughts on having lots on Worg haven't changed, I was just
> thinking it might seem more 'official' / better if the page were
> nearer to the site root.

I get that, but I feel it is not needed.

> This was partly motivated from it sometimes being annoying to just
> check what forms an element can take and not finding it easy to see in
> the manual.

If org-syntax.org becomes stable enough in Worg, we can link to this
page from the manual when necessary.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Wes Hardaker]

TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> > Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?
> 
> In about two months, I am.

IETF person here.  If you want help or a co-author, I can help if needed.

[not a mime expert, but I've been involved with the IETF for ~25 years]
-- 
Wes Hardaker                                     
My Pictures:       http://capturedonearth.com/
My Thoughts:       http://blog.capturedonearth.com/

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[TEC]

Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:

> IETF person here.  If you want help or a co-author, I can help 
> if needed.
>
> [not a mime expert, but I've been involved with the IETF for ~25 
> years]

Fantastic! I've never summited an RFC or interacted with the IETF 
before
in my life, so that sounds great to me :)

Thanks for volunteering,

Timothy.

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Wes Hardaker]

TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:
> 
> > IETF person here.  If you want help or a co-author, I can help if
> > needed.
> >
> > [not a mime expert, but I've been involved with the IETF for ~25
> > years]
> 
> Fantastic! I've never summited an RFC or interacted with the IETF
> before in my life, so that sounds great to me :)

Ok, I'll try to create a template we can fill out in github next week
(I'm swamped this week with a deadline).
-- 
Wes Hardaker                                     
My Pictures:       http://capturedonearth.com/
My Thoughts:       http://blog.capturedonearth.com/

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[TEC]

Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:

> Ok, I'll try to create a template we can fill out in github next 
> week
> (I'm swamped this week with a deadline).

Sounds good :) I'm fairly busy for the next ~month and a half 
anyway so
I'm happy to accommodate delays.

Would it be a good idea to use the markdown RFC as a template? 
That's
what I was originally thinking.

Thanks,

Timothy.

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Palak Mathur]

> On Oct 6, 2020, at 2:03 PM, TEC <tecosaur@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:
> 
>> Ok, I'll try to create a template we can fill out in github next week
>> (I'm swamped this week with a deadline).
> 
> Sounds good :) I'm fairly busy for the next ~month and a half anyway so
> I'm happy to accommodate delays.
> 
> Would it be a good idea to use the markdown RFC as a template? That's
> what I was originally thinking.
> 

Let me know if you need help. I can help out as well.


> Thanks,
> 
> Timothy.
> 

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Lennart C. Karssen]

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Hi all,

On 01-10-2020 05:40, TEC wrote:
> 
> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
> 
>> If there is absolutely zero burden put on the shoulders of Org's
>> maintainers, then I'm all for it.
> 
> From the look of things, there's just effort in the initial creation.
> 
>>> I think it would serve well the proliferation and
>>> popularization of org-mode.
>>
>> Agreed.
> 
> This is the main reason why I'm a fan of the idea :)
> 
>> Is anyone willing to check that there are no constraints?
> 
> I've read through https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6838 and I couldn't see
> any constraints placed on us beyond the initial registration's
> requirements.
> 
> For that, I think a formal syntax specification would be needed. Perhaps
> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html will do? It looks complete.


One of the things I have been wondering about with regard to Org syntax
is the use of capital letters vs. lowercase ones for e.g. blocks and
options.

The org-syntax.html document linked above lists blocks as
#+BEGIN_NAME/#+END_NAME, #+KEY: VALUE, #+CALL: VALUE, #+ATTR_BACKEND,
etc. all in uppercase.

On the other hand, the manual states in the introduction: "Keywords and
blocks are written in uppercase to enhance their readability, but you
can use lowercase in your Org files."

At the same time, when I run org-export-dispatch to insert the default
export template (via C-c C-e # default on Org 9.3) I get all #+options,
#+title, etc. lines in lowercase.


Wouldn't it be a good idea to standardise on either uppercase or
lowercase? Limitting the standard to only one of the two case options
will probably spark a huge debate on which one to choose because one
side would have to change their behaviour. But at least for the Org code
that is generated automatically like in the above case of the default
export template I think choosing a 'preferred' option that is consistent
with the syntax document and the manual would help.


Best regards,

Lennart.

> 
> I'm hoping we could then use https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7763
> (registration of text/markdown) as a template, where we could just link
> to the syntax specification.
> 
> Perhaps it could be worth putting the syntax spec under the main site as
> something like orgmode.org/syntax-spec.html.
> 
> I've also been considering spinning off the manual into a bit of a
> specification document (e.g. less of a guide / how-to, stripped down to
> just the bare information), so perhaps
> orgmode.org/specification.html#syntax ? I'd really like some second
> opinions.
> 
>> Is anyone willing to move forward with this registration?
> 
> In about two months, I am.
> 
> It looks like creating and draft and then emailing it to
> media-types@iana.org would probably be the best approach.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Timothy.
> 

-- 
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
L.C. Karssen
The Netherlands

lennart@karssen.org
http://blog.karssen.org
GPG key ID: A88F554A
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-


[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 228 bytes --]

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

"Lennart C. Karssen" <lennart@karssen.org> writes:

> Wouldn't it be a good idea to standardise on either uppercase or
> lowercase? Limitting the standard to only one of the two case options
> will probably spark a huge debate on which one to choose because one
> side would have to change their behaviour. But at least for the Org code
> that is generated automatically like in the above case of the default
> export template I think choosing a 'preferred' option that is consistent
> with the syntax document and the manual would help.

Org is standardized on lower case. Uppercase is used in the manual as
a poor man's bold, and supported for historical reasons.

Regards,
-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Bastien]

Hi Wes,

Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:

> Ok, I'll try to create a template we can fill out in github next week
> (I'm swamped this week with a deadline).

If you manage to make any progress on this, please share it with the
whole list so that interested people can possibly follow.

For the record, I think we should first enhance the Worg documentation
on Org's syntax before applying to register Org as a MIME type.  

https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html is useful but my feeling
is that it describes Org "syntax" from the point of view of the Emacs
parser -- we surely need something a bit more agnostic for registering
Org as MIME type.

I'm adding this as a call for help on https://updates.orgmode.org.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Palak Mathur]

> On Oct 24, 2020, at 7:09 AM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Wes,
> 
> Wes Hardaker <wjhns209@hardakers.net> writes:
> 
>> Ok, I'll try to create a template we can fill out in github next week
>> (I'm swamped this week with a deadline).
> 
> If you manage to make any progress on this, please share it with the
> whole list so that interested people can possibly follow.
> 
> For the record, I think we should first enhance the Worg documentation
> on Org's syntax before applying to register Org as a MIME type.  
> 
> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html is useful but my feeling
> is that it describes Org "syntax" from the point of view of the Emacs
> parser -- we surely need something a bit more agnostic for registering
> Org as MIME type.
> 
> I'm adding this as a call for help on https://updates.orgmode.org.
> 
> Best,
> 

I am fairly new to Org. Let me see if I can use it as a markup in an Editor other than Emacs. I will report on what syntax options are very Emacs specific, what are general and what can be ported. 



> -- 
> Bastien
> 

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Bastien]

Hi Palak,

Palak Mathur <palakmathur@gmail.com> writes:

> I am fairly new to Org. Let me see if I can use it as a markup in an
> Editor other than Emacs. I will report on what syntax options are very
> Emacs specific, what are general and what can be ported.

Thanks!  I think it is less a matter of *what* is described in
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html rather than *how* it is
described.

As the first paragraph says: 

  "This document describes and comments Org syntax as it is currently
  read by its parser (Org Elements)"

while we need a description of Org's syntax from the point of view of 
(1) a human writer and (2) any possible Org parser.

I don't know how difficult it is, but I suspect it is quite a lot of
work.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Leo Vivier]

Hi there,

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> As the first paragraph says: 
>
>   "This document describes and comments Org syntax as it is currently
>   read by its parser (Org Elements)"
>
> while we need a description of Org's syntax from the point of view of 
> (1) a human writer and (2) any possible Org parser.

I agree that (1) and (2) should be two different documents.  (2) would
be especially interesting since there are quite a few projects afoot to
parse Org documents outside of Emacs:
- go-org (Go)
  https://github.com/niklasfasching/go-org
- orgize (Rust)
  https://docs.rs/orgize/0.8.4/orgize/

They are in various stages of advancement, but a design document would
go a long way in federating those efforts.

> I don't know how difficult it is, but I suspect it is quite a lot of
> work.

I assume that it would be, yes.  However, as someone with a vested
interest in developing an efficient external parser for Org documents,
I’d love to contribute.  I’ve been playing around lately with ox.el to
write an exporter to Jupyter (more on that soon), and since it makes
extensive use of org-element.el, I’d have a modicum of knowledge upon
which I could initiate the effort.

Best,

-- 
Leo Vivier
Freelance Software Engineer
Website: www.leovivier.com | Blog: www.zaeph.net

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Bastien]

Hi Leo,

Leo Vivier <zaeph@zaeph.net> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> As the first paragraph says: 
>>
>>   "This document describes and comments Org syntax as it is currently
>>   read by its parser (Org Elements)"
>>
>> while we need a description of Org's syntax from the point of view of 
>> (1) a human writer and (2) any possible Org parser.
>
> I agree that (1) and (2) should be two different documents.  

Sorry, perhaps I was not clear: (1) and (2) do not need to be separate
documents. I think both can be described in a single document, my main
point was that the current org-syntax.org is from none of these points
of view.

> (2) would
> be especially interesting since there are quite a few projects afoot to
> parse Org documents outside of Emacs:
> - go-org (Go)
>   https://github.com/niklasfasching/go-org
> - orgize (Rust)
>   https://docs.rs/orgize/0.8.4/orgize/
>
> They are in various stages of advancement, but a design document would
> go a long way in federating those efforts.
>
>> I don't know how difficult it is, but I suspect it is quite a lot of
>> work.
>
> I assume that it would be, yes.  However, as someone with a vested
> interest in developing an efficient external parser for Org documents,
> I’d love to contribute.  I’ve been playing around lately with ox.el to
> write an exporter to Jupyter (more on that soon), and since it makes
> extensive use of org-element.el, I’d have a modicum of knowledge upon
> which I could initiate the effort.

Great, thanks for volunteering.  I think this is something you should
perhaps do with a long time Org user, ping-pong'ing with commits, not
alone.

Nicolas, what's your take on this?

Would it be okay for you if we rename worg/dev/org-syntax.org to
something like worg/dev/org-elements-syntax.org or would that be
confusing?

Would you have any advice on how to tackle worg/org-syntax.org in a
generic and useful way?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Leo Vivier]

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Sorry, perhaps I was not clear: (1) and (2) do not need to be separate
> documents.

No, you were quite clear.  I just surmised that two documents would be
required, but upon thinking about it some more, (1) and (2) would make
for a cohesive whole.

> Great, thanks for volunteering.  I think this is something you should
> perhaps do with a long time Org user, ping-pong'ing with commits, not
> alone.

Sure, I’d be up for that.

> Would it be okay for you if we rename worg/dev/org-syntax.org to
> something like worg/dev/org-elements-syntax.org or would that be
> confusing?

Since we already have worg/dev/org-element-api.org [1], I think the
rename to worg/dev/org-element-syntax.org would be welcome.

Notes :
[1] https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-element-api.html

-- 
Leo Vivier
Freelance Software Engineer
Website: www.leovivier.com | Blog: www.zaeph.net

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Palak Mathur]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 24, 2020, at 7:50 AM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Palak,
> 
> Palak Mathur <palakmathur@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> I am fairly new to Org. Let me see if I can use it as a markup in an
>> Editor other than Emacs. I will report on what syntax options are very
>> Emacs specific, what are general and what can be ported.
> 
> Thanks!  I think it is less a matter of *what* is described in
> https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html rather than *how* it is
> described.
> 
> As the first paragraph says: 
> 
>  "This document describes and comments Org syntax as it is currently
>  read by its parser (Org Elements)"
> 
> while we need a description of Org's syntax from the point of view of 
> (1) a human writer and (2) any possible Org parser.
> 
I understand that. 

> I don't know how difficult it is, but I suspect it is quite a lot of
> work.
> 

Yes, it is going to be some work. I will try to get something started and share a draft. 


> -- 
> Bastien

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Bastien]

Hi Leo,

Leo Vivier <zaeph@zaeph.net> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Sorry, perhaps I was not clear: (1) and (2) do not need to be separate
>> documents.
>
> No, you were quite clear.  I just surmised that two documents would be
> required, but upon thinking about it some more, (1) and (2) would make
> for a cohesive whole.

Okay -- perhaps we'll decide otherwise when we can judge by the content.

>> Great, thanks for volunteering.  I think this is something you should
>> perhaps do with a long time Org user, ping-pong'ing with commits, not
>> alone.
>
> Sure, I’d be up for that.

Thanks!  Anyone else to work on this with Leo?

>> Would it be okay for you if we rename worg/dev/org-syntax.org to
>> something like worg/dev/org-elements-syntax.org or would that be
>> confusing?
>
> Since we already have worg/dev/org-element-api.org [1], I think the
> rename to worg/dev/org-element-syntax.org would be welcome.

(Just to be clear, since the quotation context suggests otherwise, I
was really asking Nicolas, as he's the author of this document.)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Bastien]

Palak Mathur <palakmathur@gmail.com> writes:

> Yes, it is going to be some work. I will try to get something
> started and share a draft.

Can you and Leo work together on this ?

Perhaps you can share a first draft (from the user point of view) that
Leo can consolidate (from a generic parser point of view) ?

Thanks to both for your help!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Palak Mathur]

> On Oct 24, 2020, at 10:40 AM, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Palak Mathur <palakmathur@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> Yes, it is going to be some work. I will try to get something
>> started and share a draft.
> 
> Can you and Leo work together on this ?
> 
> Perhaps you can share a first draft (from the user point of view) that
> Leo can consolidate (from a generic parser point of view) ?
> 

Sure! 

> Thanks to both for your help!
> 





> -- 
> Bastien

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Timothy]

Hello again,

I'm still a fan of Org as an IETF registered MEME type, but I recently
heard of what Rust did to get text/rust registered on Linux systems:

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90487

Perhaps we could submit a similar patch?

--
Timothy.

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Carlos Pita]

Hi,

in https://list.orgmode.org/87tuuw3n15.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr/#t it's stated:

> Org is standardized on lower case. Uppercase is used in the manual as
> a poor man's bold, and supported for historical reasons.

But C-c C-x p still inserts stuff like:

   :PROPERTIES:
   :ARCHIVE:  ...
   :END:

Maybe it should be updated or maybe I don't fully understand the
convention, perhaps it's just for blocks?

But then c-a-p is very lenient since it lists lower and upper case block
variants even when I typed a lower case prefix, and upper case usually
will go first in the list, hence promoting a seemingly bad practice.

Can you clarify?

Thank you in advance,
Carlos

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Ihor Radchenko]

Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2@gmail.com> writes:

>> Org is standardized on lower case. Uppercase is used in the manual as
>> a poor man's bold, and supported for historical reasons.
>
> But C-c C-x p still inserts stuff like:
>
>    :PROPERTIES:
>    :ARCHIVE:  ...
>    :END:
>
> Maybe it should be updated or maybe I don't fully understand the
> convention, perhaps it's just for blocks?

The conversation was about keywords and similar constructs (i.e.
^#+keyword). You are looking at property drawer and properties inside.
There is no preference here, though internally properties in property
drawer are all converted to upper case.

> But then c-a-p is very lenient since it lists lower and upper case block
> variants even when I typed a lower case prefix, and upper case usually
> will go first in the list, hence promoting a seemingly bad practice.

Could you clarify what is "c-a-p"?

Best,
Ihor

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Carlos Pita]

Hi Igor,

> The conversation was about keywords and similar constructs (i.e.
> ^#+keyword). You are looking at property drawer and properties inside.
> There is no preference here, though internally properties in property
> drawer are all converted to upper case.

Ok, thank you very much for the clarification.

>> But then c-a-p is very lenient since it lists lower and upper case block
>> variants even when I typed a lower case prefix, and upper case usually
>> will go first in the list, hence promoting a seemingly bad practice.
>
> Could you clarify what is "c-a-p"?

Yes, I just meant completion-at-point. At least some org functions,
which I believe are implemented using pcomplete and then exposed through
the completion-at-point interface, provide completions in both lower and
uppercase variants and except when completion-ignore-case is nil (not
the default) uppercase candidates will be sorted first in the list.
It's often quite inconvenient to scroll down a completion menu to pick
the lowercase completion for a short prefix, which either promotes using
the uppercase variant at hand or offsets the benefits of
autocompletion. Moreover, popular external collections of snippets have
already adopted the lowercase convention of org-mode, hence introducing
inconsistency in the document when one mixes both sources of completion
(lowercase snippets and org-mode uppercase completions). So perhaps
uppercase completions should be provided only when the user explicitly
typed an uppercase prefix. What do you think?

Best regards,
Carlos

Re: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type

[Timothy]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 237 bytes --]

Hi  Carlos,

Just a minor point from me, this really should be a new thread IMO. While not
much may have happened with the IETF RFC, it’s still something on my mind that I
hope to get back to eventually.

All the best,
Timothy

Keyword completion list: uppercase or lowercase? (was: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type)

[Ihor Radchenko]

Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2@gmail.com> writes:

>>> But then c-a-p is very lenient since it lists lower and upper case block
>>> variants even when I typed a lower case prefix, and upper case usually
>>> will go first in the list, hence promoting a seemingly bad practice.
>>
>> Could you clarify what is "c-a-p"?
>
> Yes, I just meant completion-at-point. At least some org functions,
> which I believe are implemented using pcomplete and then exposed through
> the completion-at-point interface, provide completions in both lower and
> uppercase variants and except when completion-ignore-case is nil (not
> the default) uppercase candidates will be sorted first in the list.
> It's often quite inconvenient to scroll down a completion menu to pick
> the lowercase completion for a short prefix, which either promotes using
> the uppercase variant at hand or offsets the benefits of
> autocompletion. Moreover, popular external collections of snippets have
> already adopted the lowercase convention of org-mode, hence introducing
> inconsistency in the document when one mixes both sources of completion
> (lowercase snippets and org-mode uppercase completions). So perhaps
> uppercase completions should be provided only when the user explicitly
> typed an uppercase prefix. What do you think?

I just tried with clean Emacs:

#+beg<complete -> #+begin_<complete> -> list of completions, all in lower case
#+BEG<complete -> #+BEGIN_<complete> -> list of completions, all in upper case

Seems to be all right.

Can you provide a more concrete example when you are given both
uppercase and lowercase completions?

Best,
Ihor

Re: Keyword completion list: uppercase or lowercase? (was: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type)

[Bruce D'Arcus]

On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 9:41 AM Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Carlos Pita <carlosjosepita2@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >>> But then c-a-p is very lenient since it lists lower and upper case block
> >>> variants even when I typed a lower case prefix, and upper case usually
> >>> will go first in the list, hence promoting a seemingly bad practice.
> >>
> >> Could you clarify what is "c-a-p"?
> >
> > Yes, I just meant completion-at-point. At least some org functions,
> > which I believe are implemented using pcomplete and then exposed through
> > the completion-at-point interface, provide completions in both lower and
> > uppercase variants and except when completion-ignore-case is nil (not
> > the default) uppercase candidates will be sorted first in the list.
> > It's often quite inconvenient to scroll down a completion menu to pick
> > the lowercase completion for a short prefix, which either promotes using
> > the uppercase variant at hand or offsets the benefits of
> > autocompletion. Moreover, popular external collections of snippets have
> > already adopted the lowercase convention of org-mode, hence introducing
> > inconsistency in the document when one mixes both sources of completion
> > (lowercase snippets and org-mode uppercase completions). So perhaps
> > uppercase completions should be provided only when the user explicitly
> > typed an uppercase prefix. What do you think?
>
> I just tried with clean Emacs:
>
> #+beg<complete -> #+begin_<complete> -> list of completions, all in lower case
> #+BEG<complete -> #+BEGIN_<complete> -> list of completions, all in upper case

Perhaps at some point the upper case should just be removed?

This raises a related question I've wondered about:

Why doesn't the completion insert the full begin/end, and put point inside?

It's a bit of an awkward UX to add the end line ATM.

Bruce

Re: Keyword completion list: uppercase or lowercase? (was: Shower thought: submit an IETF RFC to register Org as a MIME type)

[Ihor Radchenko]

"Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com> writes:

>> I just tried with clean Emacs:
>>
>> #+beg<complete -> #+begin_<complete> -> list of completions, all in lower case
>> #+BEG<complete -> #+BEGIN_<complete> -> list of completions, all in upper case
>
> Perhaps at some point the upper case should just be removed?

I am not sure if it is a good idea from backward compatibility point of
view. On the other hand, we managed to change the property drawer
default position. So, I do not see why it is impossible if most users
prefer lower case.

> This raises a related question I've wondered about:
>
> Why doesn't the completion insert the full begin/end, and put point inside?
>
> It's a bit of an awkward UX to add the end line ATM.

Adding full begin/end may not be good idea for completion-at-point:
1. It becomes awkward i.e. to insert the source block language and
   arguments (#+begin_src my-super-cool-programming-language :var x=1)
2. completion-at-point usually does not behave in such way.

Note that Org mode provides org-tempo doing exactly what you describe.

Best,
Ihor

Re: Keyword completion list: uppercase or lowercase?

[Carlos Pita]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Igor,

> I just tried with clean Emacs:
>
> #+beg<complete -> #+begin_<complete> -> list of completions, all in lower case
> #+BEG<complete -> #+BEGIN_<complete> -> list of completions, all in upper case
>
> Seems to be all right.

You're right, I was under the impression that completion-ignore-case = t
was the default, but it's just an ancient customization of mine that I
got used to and had forgotten about. My apologies for the noise.

Best regards,
Carlos