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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2021 10:13:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-reply-to: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::835; envelope-from=johnrkitchin@gmail.com; helo=mail-qt1-x835.google.com X-Spam_score_int: 1 X-Spam_score: 0.1 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Tom Gillespie , org-mode-email Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1628703125; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=Fweqk/jUxGgMiug8hyrUTJIizZ1HGaDfC6bhX4FNEmw=; b=NoOTdofUO4I+7f/MxKoRjnFu6e5HSmtIbS2p7gwZEqn6mDNWzZv8Ylhg4hs0k8mD3GQXk/ lMFQoQPaVR3vfuoQ9QzkllrnaZEWT8/gSgO26W9uITucoy3z0cvnFY3WpY/UH9LaT/qFMJ FV8xr7Rf+b7BZT9VqbLMHgx29glozd9jlxoIMX/9VJHLYdt59TCZBiwKanEpl5d8s2SR0j U8UjmUAYyiN+nDKEdblSuFRlNmib2bhIhnO0IsL8P+RCYd6dI6Paj7idfk89YCdqP2PJSL t4QfRLBAh87ab5or3ulC4yzjS0Zys98OUyiudijzmuJMkYf75yv5o0n8s0q5Iw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1628703125; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=igO+w6JRctF2/o8mDvpKl0WndjcgttVqoqurDkgWYBr9B+/8f8senQVbIhGafTQHoLzFWs w/3vEtYYM4AGu58eskUxph1krA0AKcvv57UkqCxOX4YhSS5fPm9aWxFkJMF/XxQ0qjDxkR LcPObnIha9uFZj1x8NnkLbfnoiMnonxjef+9ibaoBVcgicdj6eHlKW+HeDnE6HrELTBYt0 x+ZL7ofE3NU8dosVYUliDLlR5RhBuvNIkH6a5BBc2nvtOwqUvReIRco2zzYICg27Is/GMJ qskrEhW2e1HyBUI968kMttFKV15u6SXMYYbVn7IcYboaynw6Qmdik08IKN3W3Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=YLCesVWn; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.31 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=YLCesVWn; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=andrew.cmu.edu (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: BD8FDF998 X-Spam-Score: -0.31 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: sRVqInuJr50x "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > Here's a recent subthread on this question: > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-07/msg00233.html > > At the end of that discussion, my argument against using citations for > cross-references: > > 1. Cross-references are not citations, neither conceptually, nor in > software implementations. In LaTeX, MS Word, Libre office, InDesign, > etc, cross-references are handled differently than citations. There, > they are typed internal links. You can get a sense of how this works > in this tutorial for Word, which includes a list of cross-reference > types, and so hints at the range of things people need to internally > reference: > > https://www.customguide.com/word/how-to-cross-reference-in-word > > 2. As John and Joost noted on that thread, because they're different, > they raise a range of implementation questions, most notably for me > what org-cite processors are supposed to do with these citations that > are not citations. As it is now, the user would just get errors and/or > unexpected output. This is also the case with org-ref links, if you haven't installed or loaded org-ref. > > On Wed, Aug 11, 2021 at 1:28 AM Tom Gillespie wrote: > > ... > >> Actually, having written this now, I think that both solutions have >> their own use cases. Org cite is clearly about providing evidence for, >> or a scholarly reference for something, and critically it can embed >> some metadata about that reference in the document as a citation or >> perhaps as an excerpt (and extension of what org-ref does now when the >> cursor is over a reference?). Regular links do not provide any way to >> embed metadata within the document, they are purely pointers. > > Right, which is what a cross-reference is. > > It's just there needs to be some way to distinguish among types of > targets, I think. At the risk of repeating myself, I don't think this is true. There needs to be a way to distinguish among styles of cross-references, just like there is for citations, and for the same reason: different contexts require different styles. In citations, you might want to see the year, author, number, or some combination of those, and there are different styles for those that all use the same key. In cross-references, you might want to see a figure/table number, and these may be styled differently than an equation. You might also want the page number a label is on, or the name of a section. In MS Word, it is even possible to use the caption of a figure or table. These are just different styles to use on a label. As I have thought about this more, the line between citations and cross-references has blurred. In org-ref, they were handled the same way, with org-links (although each link had its own export function). For both cites and refs, the links are just pointers, and in both cases it is possible for them to point to things within the same document. Even in LaTeX, when we submit a manuscript, the citation references are embedded in a standalone tex file, so every link is to an internal location. The line blurs even further if you use something like org-bibtex, with entries in the same document. Then, you can make a cross-reference to a heading, or a citation reference to a reference entry. > >> I think it would be a mistake to use up equation/eq and table/tbl or >> figure/fig prefixes for references that are internal to org, because it implicitly >> limits/collides with the #+link: keyword. > > Is there a workaround for this somehow, or an alternative that gets > the same thing in the end? > > Bruce -- Professor John Kitchin Doherty Hall A207F Department of Chemical Engineering Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh, PA 15213 412-268-7803 @johnkitchin http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu Pronouns: he/him/his