Re: Copyright/Distribution questions (Emacs/Orgmode)

Re: Copyright/Distribution questions (Emacs/Orgmode)

[Christian Egli]

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to gmane.emacs.devel as well.

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I would like to withdraw my pleasure in having these files distributed
> as part of Org distribution.

These files have been published under the GNU GPL[1] which gives
everybody the right to modify and redistribute them as long as they
comply with the GNU GPL. In other words the current maintainer has every
right to include these files in any further release of orgmode.

> More specifically, I would like to know how copyright assignment works
> for files that are not yet part of Emacs.  

The copyright assignment is solely for the purpose of having one
copyright owner. This helps for legal disputes and to change the
license. However it is not needed for redistribution purposes, i.e. it
gives you no legal recourse to stop redistribution of these files. Once
you have published them under GNU GPL (and you have) everybody
(including the current maintainer of orgmode) has the four freedoms that
come with the GNU GPL[2] namely

> the freedom to use the software for any purpose,
> the freedom to change the software to suit your needs,
> the freedom to share the software with your friends and neighbors, and
> the freedom to share the changes you make.

Again IANAL, but then the GNU GPL is pretty clear about this.

Hope this helps
Christian

Footnotes: 
[1]  on mailing lists and in the git repo of orgmode
[2]  http://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3.html
-- 
Christian Egli
Swiss Library for the Blind, Visually Impaired and Print Disabled
Grubenstrasse 12, CH-8045 Zürich, Switzerland

-----
Die neue Online-Bibliothek der SBS: Mit wenigen Klicks zum Buch unter http://online.sbs.ch

Re: Copyright/Distribution questions (Emacs/Orgmode)

[Jambunathan K]

Christian

You are mixing licensing and copyright assignment.  They are two
different things.

I am withdrawing my pleasure in giving a consent for inclusion in Emacs.
IMO, opinion I can do so for the files haven't landed in Emacs yet.  

If you look at some of my posts in Orgmode list, I make it very clear
that Orgmode can choose to re-distribute the files.

Jambunathan K.


Christian Egli <christian.egli@sbs.ch> writes:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I would like to withdraw my pleasure in having these files distributed
>> as part of Org distribution.
>
> These files have been published under the GNU GPL[1] which gives
> everybody the right to modify and redistribute them as long as they
> comply with the GNU GPL. In other words the current maintainer has every
> right to include these files in any further release of orgmode.
>
>> More specifically, I would like to know how copyright assignment works
>> for files that are not yet part of Emacs.  
>
> The copyright assignment is solely for the purpose of having one
> copyright owner. This helps for legal disputes and to change the
> license. However it is not needed for redistribution purposes, i.e. it
> gives you no legal recourse to stop redistribution of these files. Once
> you have published them under GNU GPL (and you have) everybody
> (including the current maintainer of orgmode) has the four freedoms that
> come with the GNU GPL[2] namely
>
>> the freedom to use the software for any purpose,
>> the freedom to change the software to suit your needs,
>> the freedom to share the software with your friends and neighbors, and
>> the freedom to share the changes you make.
>
> Again IANAL, but then the GNU GPL is pretty clear about this.
>
> Hope this helps
> Christian
>
> Footnotes: 
> [1]  on mailing lists and in the git repo of orgmode
> [2]  http://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3.html

-- 

Re: A proposal (ox-html.el/ox-odt.el)

[Jambunathan K]

Carsten, Stefan and others

Let me table a proposal.

All parties - including me - unequivocally agree that interest of Emacs
users should be kept in mind.

I want to fork ox-html.el and ox-odt.el (as it stands today in Org repo)
to GNU ELPA repo.  I request that Emacs maintainers recognize the GNU
ELPA version (maintained by me) as the authoritative official versions
of these files that gets bundled with SUMO Emacs.

Org maintainer can propose to merge fixes to the above files from Org
"downstream" in to "upstream" Emacs GNU ELPA.  I will oblige for an
upstream push for most part but will exercise my own discretion on a
patch by patch basis.

In summary,


  Jambunathan
    +---------------+
    |  ox-html.el   +---  push               Emacs maintainer
    |  ox-odt.el    |   \-----
    |  GNU ELPA     |         \-----    +--------------------+
    |               |               \-->|                    |
    +---------------+                   | lisp/org/ox-html.el|
           ^  Push                      | lisp/org/ox-odt.el |
           |                            |                    |
           |                            +--------------------+
           |                            | Other org files    |
    +------+---------+               /->|                    |
    |                |           /---   |                    |
    |     Org repo   |      /----       |                    |
    |                |  /---            +--------------------+
    |                +--  push
    |                |
    |                |
    +----------------+
     Org maintainer

I have my differences with Bastien.  The differences are well-known (but
not well-understood) and as far as I am concerned those are
ir-reconcilable.  I want ox-html.el and ox-odt.el to be available to
everyone (including Emacs/Org) but outside of Bastien's control.  

The above model requires one minor change: Users should be able to
download the development versions of packages via a new GNU ELPA-dev.

It seems complicated.  But captures the disributed nature of Emacs
development, IMO.

What do you think?  Consider it as a thought experiment.  It will
accommodate my wishes without shortchanging any users.

ps: Let us set aside my copyright proposal for a while.

Jambunathan K.
--

Re: A proposal (ox-html.el/ox-odt.el)

[W. Greenhouse]

Jambunathan,

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:

> People are disregarding my "moral rights" over my work and pushing me in
> a corner to act a certain way to serve their own interests.  This I feel
> is plain wrong and an act of snatching or appropriation.
>
> Jambunathan K.

Moral right and copyright are unrelated concepts.  In the jurisdictions
that recognize "author's moral right" or "droit moral" (much of the EU
and other civil-code countries), such right is non-assignable and would
not even be affected by the FSF papers.  However, in the jurisdictions
where copyright is assignable, it has nothing to do with author's moral
right.

If we're going to discuss "moral right" in the less legalistic and more
broad sense of your rights in an ethical society as a person with
agency, I think you're disregarding the rights of prior contributors to
the ox-html program, of which you were but one of many.  Those
contributors did intend the code to become part of Emacs, and, morally
as well as legally, you entered into an agreement to further that aim
when you decided to work on it.  If you really do intend to take your
ball and go home, do please call a fork a fork--and also do please
recognize that you are the one "snatching" or "appropriating" a joint
work out of your own sense of pique.

> I want to fork ox-html.el and ox-odt.el (as it stands today in Org repo)
> to GNU ELPA repo.  I request that Emacs maintainers recognize the GNU
> ELPA version (maintained by me) as the authoritative official versions
> of these files that gets bundled with SUMO Emacs.

...

>
>   Jambunathan
>     +---------------+
>     |  ox-html.el   +---  push               Emacs maintainer
>     |  ox-odt.el    |   \-----
>     |  GNU ELPA     |         \-----    +--------------------+
>     |               |               \-->|                    |
>     +---------------+                   | lisp/org/ox-html.el|
>            ^  Push                      | lisp/org/ox-odt.el |
>            |                            |                    |
>            |                            +--------------------+
>            |                            | Other org files    |
>     +------+---------+               /->|                    |
>     |                |           /---   |                    |
>     |     Org repo   |      /----       |                    |
>     |                |  /---            +--------------------+
>     |                +--  push
>     |                |
>     |                |
>     +----------------+
>      Org maintainer


This makes no sense at all.  It is needless busywork for the Emacs
maintainer to integrate code from one particular contributor who is unable
to cooperate with the maintainer of the project to which he
contributes.  It also unnecessarily inconveniences ordinary Emacs/Org
users, who would now face a further obstacle to simply using the
software.  They already have to go elsewhere to get contrib/ programs
or to use the latest version of Org; now you want to make it so that
even the release version of Org is fractured and schismed.  That is
totally unacceptable.

-- 
Regards,
WGG

Re: A proposal (ox-html.el/ox-odt.el)

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha all,

wgreenhouse-sGOZH3hwPm2sTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org (W. Greenhouse)
writes:

> Jambunathan,
>
> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> writes:
>
>> People are disregarding my "moral rights" over my work and pushing me in
>> a corner to act a certain way to serve their own interests.  This I feel
>> is plain wrong and an act of snatching or appropriation.
>>
>> Jambunathan K.
>
> Moral right and copyright are unrelated concepts.  In the jurisdictions
> that recognize "author's moral right" or "droit moral" (much of the EU
> and other civil-code countries), such right is non-assignable and would
> not even be affected by the FSF papers.  However, in the jurisdictions
> where copyright is assignable, it has nothing to do with author's moral
> right.
>
> If we're going to discuss "moral right" in the less legalistic and more
> broad sense of your rights in an ethical society as a person with
> agency, I think you're disregarding the rights of prior contributors to
> the ox-html program, of which you were but one of many.  Those
> contributors did intend the code to become part of Emacs, and, morally
> as well as legally, you entered into an agreement to further that aim
> when you decided to work on it.  If you really do intend to take your
> ball and go home, do please call a fork a fork--and also do please
> recognize that you are the one "snatching" or "appropriating" a joint
> work out of your own sense of pique.
>
>> I want to fork ox-html.el and ox-odt.el (as it stands today in Org repo)
>> to GNU ELPA repo.  I request that Emacs maintainers recognize the GNU
>> ELPA version (maintained by me) as the authoritative official versions
>> of these files that gets bundled with SUMO Emacs.
>
> ...
>
>>
>>   Jambunathan
>>     +---------------+
>>     |  ox-html.el   +---  push               Emacs maintainer
>>     |  ox-odt.el    |   \-----
>>     |  GNU ELPA     |         \-----    +--------------------+
>>     |               |               \-->|                    |
>>     +---------------+                   | lisp/org/ox-html.el|
>>            ^  Push                      | lisp/org/ox-odt.el |
>>            |                            |                    |
>>            |                            +--------------------+
>>            |                            | Other org files    |
>>     +------+---------+               /->|                    |
>>     |                |           /---   |                    |
>>     |     Org repo   |      /----       |                    |
>>     |                |  /---            +--------------------+
>>     |                +--  push
>>     |                |
>>     |                |
>>     +----------------+
>>      Org maintainer
>
>
> This makes no sense at all.  It is needless busywork for the Emacs
> maintainer to integrate code from one particular contributor who is unable
> to cooperate with the maintainer of the project to which he
> contributes.  It also unnecessarily inconveniences ordinary Emacs/Org
> users, who would now face a further obstacle to simply using the
> software.  They already have to go elsewhere to get contrib/ programs
> or to use the latest version of Org; now you want to make it so that
> even the release version of Org is fractured and schismed.  That is
> totally unacceptable.

If this analysis is correct, then Jambunathan's proposal furthers his
stated purpose "to delay the release [of Org] or cause confusion".

I am concerned (perhaps out of ignorance) that Jambunathan's ability to
contribute code to Org might be used to the same effect.

Because I am keen to know that my investment in Org is being suitably
protected, could someone assure me either that my concern is unfounded,
i.e., that code contributed by Jambunathan can be successfully vetted so
that it doesn't delay development or cause confusion, or that
appropriate steps have been taken to ensure that future code
contributions from Jambunathan will not become part of Org?

All the best,
Tom

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com