From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: "Rustom Mody" Subject: Re: Documentation request Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:50:46 +0530 Message-ID: References: <87lk6lhh4v.fsf@kamaloka.dhatu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1447531469==" Return-path: Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JGXIN-0000Ri-L3 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:20:55 -0500 Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JGXII-0000PN-Ag for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:20:54 -0500 Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JGXIH-0000PB-Ve for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:20:50 -0500 Received: from rv-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.198.191]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JGXIG-0001Lo-Ni for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 05:20:49 -0500 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id c27so2387401rvf.6 for ; Sun, 20 Jan 2008 02:20:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87lk6lhh4v.fsf@kamaloka.dhatu> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: emacs-org --===============1447531469== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8335_16890360.1200824446812" ------=_Part_8335_16890360.1200824446812 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On Jan 19, 2008 10:44 PM, Sven Bretfeld wrote: > Hello to all > > Org mode is powerful. This well-known, almost trivial, statement > contains a problematic dimension that is so far not solved in neither > the documentation nor in the various howtos all over the web: How do > newbies learn to make optimal use of all it's power? > Hear Hear Sven! I too must confess to increasing depression at the fact that -- in my little world -- the imminent marriage of GTD with org is far from consummated. Two months back I told my friends Give me 2 days of 'leave-me-alone' and I'll grok this org-thing and soon have my life in order. 2 months on and I am yet to figure out how to match the org notion of agenda with the corresponding GTD lists. Not yet figured out how to use remember... Just 2 examples... Much else that has me at sea... > > I read quite a few descriptions of how to use org mode for GTD, > day-planning, even LaTeX-writing. But when reading this list I have > the impression that many members use org mode in a much more creative > way than I can imagine from reading what is to be found on the web. > > I'm sure that I don't use the possibilities of org mode in an optimal > way, and that my concept of ordering data and using features is not > the best suitable for me. The major problem is as follows: > > - Even if one knows what features are available in org-mode, it's hard > to imagine what fine things you can actually do with them and how > they could be used to complement each other in order to build up a > meaningful overall concept. > This may be so Sven but I see the problem as more basic: I never learnt how to be organized I do not know the intricacies of orgmode The use of org for organizing (a la GTD or anything else) is clearly a second order problem > > In other words, it's a problem of imagination. This might be *my* > problem, but yet I believe that many users will have this same > difficulty, especially the new ones. John Wiegley's and Charles Cave's > howtos are fine and most instructive in this respect, but I have > different needs. I need more of these suggestions in order to pick out > ideas for my own style. On the org mode homepage there are several > descriptions of setups (Lisp code), but AFAIK only these two > explanations of concepts. We had many postings that gave a glimpse on > some concepts, but this is piecemeal. > > What I would really like to see -- and now I come to my suggestion -- > are some snapshots of org files by other users. What features are they > using and what for? What is the underlying concept of their > organization structure? What I need is the: "Aah, you are doing it > that way ..." > Of course this would be useful. Also would be useful to see the lisp setups, makefiles/shell scripts people are using showing how remember, diary, bbdb and much else hang together > > How do you think about making a space on the tutorial page of the org > mode homepage where people can upload example org-files, maybe > together with a short description of their concepts? Of course these > files have to be prepared in order to disguise their personal tasks > and dates, which are (of course) of no concern to the public, but they > should have to be recognizable as snapshots of a work-in-progress > ("project A", "project B" isn't very instructive, I think. "Writing > chapter 4 of my dissertation thesis" would be much more informative). > > I think this could be a valuable source for ideas how to optimize the > use of org mode, and it could give newbies (as well as experts) a > major clue to orientate themselves in the world of org mode. > > I hope this request is not too silly. Of course, I would be willing to > become the first person to submit a file, although I believe that > there is not much to be learned from it. > > Thanks for considering my request (and for reading this long message) > > Sven > Sorry if Ive sounded grumpy. When I saw the mail talking of the need to rewrite org-mode I thought I know lisp better than many people and I may even be able to round up some ex-students of mine to chip in to this rewrite. Then I thought-- knowing Scheme is one thing whereas the intricacies of elisp something else. Each time the emacs version bumps up I find I understand it less and less So for now will have to stay as a user rather than contributor. :-( ------=_Part_8335_16890360.1200824446812 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On Jan 19, 2008 10:44 PM, Sven Bretfeld <sven.bretfeld@gmx.ch> wrote:
Hello to all

Org mode is powerful. This well-known, almost trivial, statement
contains a problematic dimension that is so far not solved in neither
the documentation nor in the various howtos all over the web: How do
newbies learn to make optimal use of all it's power?

Hear Hear Sven!
I too must confess to increasing depression at the fact that -- in my little world -- the imminent marriage of GTD with org is far from consummated.  Two months back I told my friends Give me 2 days of 'leave-me-alone' and I'll grok this org-thing and soon have my life in order.

2 months on and I am yet to figure out how to match the org notion of agenda with the corresponding GTD lists.  Not yet figured out how to use remember... Just 2 examples... Much else that has me at sea...

I read quite a few descriptions of how to use org mode for GTD,
day-planning, even LaTeX-writing. But when reading this list I have
the impression that many members use org mode in a much more creative
way than I can imagine from reading what is to be found on the web.

I'm sure that I don't use the possibilities of org mode in an optimal
way, and that my concept of ordering data and using features is not
the best suitable for me. The major problem is as follows:

- Even if one knows what features are available in org-mode, it's hard
 to imagine what fine things you can actually do with them and how
 they could be used to complement each other in order to build up a
 meaningful overall concept.

This may be so Sven but I see the problem as more basic:

I never learnt how to be organized
I do not know the intricacies of orgmode
The use of org for organizing (a la GTD or anything else) is clearly a second order problem
 

In other words, it's a problem of imagination. This might be *my*
problem, but yet I believe that many users will have this same
difficulty, especially the new ones. John Wiegley's and Charles Cave's
howtos are fine and most instructive in this respect, but I have
different needs. I need more of these suggestions in order to pick out
ideas for my own style. On the org mode homepage there are several
descriptions of setups (Lisp code), but AFAIK only these two
explanations of concepts. We had many postings that gave a glimpse on
some concepts, but this is piecemeal.

What I would really like to see -- and now I come to my suggestion --
are some snapshots of org files by other users. What features are they
using and what for? What is the underlying concept of their
organization structure? What I need is the: "Aah, you are doing it
that way ..."

Of course this  would be useful.
Also would be useful to see the lisp setups, makefiles/shell scripts people are using showing how remember, diary, bbdb and much else hang together

How do you think about making a space on the tutorial page of the org
mode homepage where people can upload example org-files, maybe
together with a short description of their concepts? Of course these
files have to be prepared in order to disguise their personal tasks
and dates, which are (of course) of no concern to the public, but they
should have to be recognizable as snapshots of a work-in-progress
("project A", "project B" isn't very instructive, I think. "Writing
chapter 4 of my dissertation thesis" would be much more informative).

I think this could be a valuable source for ideas how to optimize the
use of org mode, and it could give newbies (as well as experts) a
major clue to orientate themselves in the world of org mode.

I hope this request is not too silly. Of course, I would be willing to
become the first person to submit a file, although I believe that
there is not much to be learned from it.

Thanks for considering my request (and for reading this long message)

Sven

Sorry if Ive sounded grumpy.  When I saw the mail talking of the need to rewrite org-mode I thought I know lisp better than many people and I may even be able to round up some ex-students of mine to chip in to this rewrite.
Then I thought-- knowing Scheme is one thing whereas the intricacies of elisp something else.  Each time the emacs version bumps up I find I understand it less and less

So for now will have to stay as a user rather than contributor. :-(
------=_Part_8335_16890360.1200824446812-- --===============1447531469== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode --===============1447531469==--