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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1621519103; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=DqSP9g9AYzmAEYu3TTApWUnxhMsESrnMuJKe7RTvy50=; b=TsVdVsPnleOfWgTg8HOMC681DwHCzHMoVDp+Jt8iXCuD2M03Zmsd/azS/e7tBci2csSewJ 5PUsz01u3Vu0KQ+9y+kn52y6Hkp2g27K69d2EwizXQ0ncsV/d0CXVoHQJ/uoAjduveC8dj tR3T/7SREk3shgJomC714QS0f2nTGIOFD+RWhbdgfdFio42K3qx138ehUIncr3j93TuUxa qqt58LW5CSbpfVuxjBEZ8vsF2mWIq7MZrZv08XRv0/Ods8LytjPluiO6uFPGjxgOtELNYW DHciHlpthMotehMHKKq108MM4fkzLwHPHwIRKwRG5R/pWlNbKHpw1DDjpLjAYg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1621519103; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=ddEEEyQhdKH8IG62IYSGfjKRlC9mcLHWmJejlhIMmqTbsvUBBYYd61EtKLjnhdOfZbRwDT 78DcLspT5ATNeQo6Fcr5w7AASMHbdgTVJWLC67LwYKKqEom0xPLYSL6BsMasj/13R7xKZq /Z8ce030nYc2ZWJDYsUsmDdDlt9d7/PDalJ/owMm9ew2bv6WoQ+50lJqcNcPNlKV3JczEd wVvSu5SZXyIXORSJzDBfasjdPm/5jVzVHUfZf8kmmuDbKnQ7Pl9y1+mNmoWBSp1sPKsNUK 7Xbnrrs7LamNghFW4pvZwESgwauD5OaKfhCk5kiy/y9vkGcFLlBG4R9pT5e0jQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=TiiDIeEs; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=ymMciNqU; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.14 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=TiiDIeEs; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=ymMciNqU; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: A132C21E5B X-Spam-Score: -3.14 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: xZFhSoMLbi/s Am 20.05.2021 um 15:22 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus: > On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:07 AM Denis Maier wrote: >> >> Am 20.05.2021 um 12:36 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus: >>> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 4:18 AM Denis Maier wrote: > >>>> But maybe cite/plain or cite/basic or so? >>> >>> First, are those two suggestions just synonyms for cite/bare? >> >> Yes. Nicolas complained about cite/bare so I've thought cite/plain may >> be nicer. (See autocite=plain) But the biblatex manual uses itself the >> term "bare". > > OK. > > I don't care; I suggested "bare" because the earlier "alt" was super vague. > >>> Or are you indeed suggesting completely changing the current logic of >>> these styles and substyles? E.g "bare' substyle becomes rather a >>> "plain" or "basic" style? >> >> I'm not really sure we need bare substyles at all. At least in biblatex >> it's the basis for the other commands. > > Though see my followup message on autocite config. > > Does that change this discussion? Why? [...] >> >> #+begin_example >> At the beginning Doe argues this and that (2020, p. 20). He goes on to >> say blabla, see ibid., p. 23. >> #+end_example >> >> In order to get the ibid., you'll need a \cite* instead of just a >> \citeyear or so. > > Shouldn't that example be covered in org-cite by, respectively ... > > cite/year > cite/bare (or plain) Hmm, yes. The example was not ideal. Works better in an author title style: #+begin_example At the beginning Doe argues this and that (Title, p. 20). Later, Doe then says blabla, see ibid., p. 23. #+end_example You'd get that with #+begin_example At the beginning Doe argues this and that \parencite*[20]{doe}. Later, Doe then says blabla, see \cite*[23]{doe}. #+end_example cite/year => \citeyear won't work as this will just print the year without wrapping it in parentheses. It also won't trigger the ibid. in the next citation. cite/bare = \cite would also work in that particular citation, but an author might remove the preceding sentence, which will make the ibid. disappear. You will then have a regular bare citation (= "Doe 2020", or "Doe, Title") instead of just the year or the title in parentheses. > > ...? > >>> And how would all of this map to natbib and citeproc? > >>> The style+substyles really should work well across the output formats, >>> and gracefully fallback if certain variants, particularly in biblatex, >>> aren't available in other formats. >>> >>> Is that the case with your suggested changes? >> >> The problem is indeed portability between csl and biblatex (and natbib). >> I think it's unavoidable that users who use biblatex specific commands >> loose that to a certain degree. Fallback mappings should be added, of >> course, but they will only get you so far. We should probably indicate >> which commands work in all packages so users can make their decisions >> consciously. > > Yes, it seems highly likely that some of biblatex just won't fully > work in other formats. > > But ideally we'd limit that. Absolutely! Denis