From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id aB1DIzUkh2DejAAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 22:36:05 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id 2Iz5HjUkh2AdBAAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 20:36:05 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9531A17203 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 22:36:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:48354 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lb7xa-0003An-P4 for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:36:02 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37730) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lb7wo-0003AB-Es for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:35:16 -0400 Received: from mout-p-201.mailbox.org ([80.241.56.171]:46524) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_CHACHA20_POLY1305:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lb7wk-0002Sk-Uu for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:35:13 -0400 Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org (smtp2.mailbox.org [IPv6:2001:67c:2050:105:465:1:2:0]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-384) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mout-p-201.mailbox.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FTc8X5Wc7zQjPj; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 22:35:08 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=mailbox.org; h= content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:in-reply-to :mime-version:date:date:message-id:from:from:references:subject :subject:received; s=mail20150812; t=1619469305; bh=p7u99lt/kwzl r+XVm2T/mpvgtaQ1cbUkBlfsZRiedQs=; b=pVqTOIfzQg4MuGnedzCFeqVq9dwx UP2fmfUUOcDvIXR0eO83nEV/DKZSJafXWedtaMlSAW6Pf3jEx2gl5nkRBWxVFdCB SdfP0DGD9QTQAVfRephqPT0JQuG5W4KFJxa0qk8hjN8yFl2CAI+Byb200gtzaG5l rZVbPOFNUuC/CV43eMUSVCJ8ECujXh+GLPpWpsZvh4d8q0pKsU/Yz3+mn2QSlkx6 8uavV0UwmNNzJBkXvL+lnjDTEpha1uezB2Uzixo9tkUoYhyPf7DvZo1JgGpdNsff DLK7QzGg90wUbABtC2IzPVPYY1eRHqUu59FGAeZWoMwSv00WLXhz4Znq9Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailbox.org; s=mail20150812; t=1619469306; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=t2So9k8oc/+g71c3zsHAB2hgFIl52tgIfpIBLUMp3Og=; b=YdNccRaVE5/n1kRul50UXB0LVj9u+JSJueB8XSCzS6xoP0B+UACh80BD+NeKQ2HWclUSZF X4mAsQ6nKf75HYaC6spRoTUIWchl8pO9x/6+OUKPDgCCxE+HVEWbPOtFnyK2EbhTGz/6k4 3g3JD11ovDiGDN3EeGWH8UQ5cz1rpjYKuRHQWXvYFx//sAcE6MWTzIgpdRHGuBC6lHGCCz s4Ee9rwqzZ/M/z69RdfGZj7o2AhNc5ndCvHywQmO02eE6KVtAHvvBJzESulM6CaW7RKDv3 LchF4mf9lTFbdjpPpwPDS0/5abvDDeazphOaE8VuwQd13zsJeCQddn3hmqxLOQ== X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at heinlein-support.de Received: from smtp2.mailbox.org ([80.241.60.241]) by spamfilter03.heinlein-hosting.de (spamfilter03.heinlein-hosting.de [80.241.56.117]) (amavisd-new, port 10030) with ESMTP id SHwHCSuXSVHD; Mon, 26 Apr 2021 22:35:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback To: Bruce D'Arcus , =?UTF-8?Q?Andr=c3=a1s_Simonyi?= , "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org" References: <874ktu8gr9.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <20210324182751.GA8721@atlantis> <87czuzprmh.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87sg3neo0k.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87eef35h7n.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87a6pr5g4m.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <877dkt2pce.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <878s57fubm.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> From: Denis Maier Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 22:35:07 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MBO-SPAM-Probability: X-Rspamd-Score: -0.40 / 15.00 / 15.00 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 90EC917E8 X-Rspamd-UID: 3f1c61 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=80.241.56.171; envelope-from=denismaier@mailbox.org; helo=mout-p-201.mailbox.org X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1619469363; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=t2So9k8oc/+g71c3zsHAB2hgFIl52tgIfpIBLUMp3Og=; b=KUsbeT+cDdNJNSuzy6jjwgioSXcCbGXfAwqBd18mHpH+eG2ivCWZRdf9L1T0vJjpQbFMdH d5jYSBz/JBUYZRkG0x8nu+Dm+WTSdPfNx9o2pfGZaApAYm24taKQelEE8h0Y65fZafXS6E D4y/Imyr/lLfscsQ02vC3N8FiZeP6MygFcf6u+atOMxf6Dn1Q37Y5DvRmync5PGw+4GxEA 9icniGSNJV9yXFn4MRB2hPNMCCVu4nQrRIdnU+MhGPXWE1iB07t01WDQVYnHfsclAnedyn d0IHwChfs4EpZj5RF0gswhzQTnfKGzjTDPHjhvv+mqZ2gXyktEFqA5omhxWstA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1619469363; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=SpYBqF+EbL0DDyg/8ByRfwb9u8PnEksRfId1RKG5Qog1hxOM+zlkfvUu1zhsivQP2zVRnz eEWpJVsS9/9pLz/Gc7Kxm9JBFX4Zq8UDSfLVQ3UgUL2f4N3ufKPKyD1MU0tj0MfiUc7VQL FjBvdmyUgklYlt+zEEX2uDbYFT51QGDK9LH+sHwWN7iTi9AZMXnO4n+5KIhItienWxfyF/ PV11gFukSpi6u6snkPiFH061j42WhZv2oZNE80M9dkeiW0NNV8zJcWRLiUJ4H6ipccrH07 Fk7xiEnQjX5pixzgqCjMqXNOOliIMslZNUhEU/c/jQXcL0sh3UzZUQ+yhpoqoA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=pVqTOIfz; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=YdNccRaV; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.15 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=pVqTOIfz; dkim=pass header.d=mailbox.org header.s=mail20150812 header.b=YdNccRaV; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=mailbox.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 9531A17203 X-Spam-Score: -3.15 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: NUKjzjofk5Lu Am 26.04.2021 um 16:54 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus: > I had an idea on this, though it may not be a good one ... > > On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 2:39 PM Bruce D'Arcus wrote: >> >> On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 1:47 PM Nicolas Goaziou wrote: >>> >>> Hello, >>> >>> "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: >>> >>>> Some sentence with a concluding citation [cite:@key]. >>>> >>>> ... that should end up like this: >>>> >>>> Some sentence with a concluding citation.[1] >>>> >>>> Aside: looking through the CSL spec, it doesn't seem this is >>>> documented. It obviously should be. >>>> >>>> And I don't remember if that convention is locale-specific; e.g. if >>>> while that's the standard in English, it could be different in France. >>>> >>>> In any case, this sort of punctuation modification should be possible. >>> >>> Could you show more example of this, possibly including quotes the >>> citation, or better, a precise description of the punctuation >>> modification you have in mind? >> >> Yes. >> >> Denis lays it out in this comment: >> >> https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation/issues/139#issuecomment-825934813 >> >> What he's arguing is that the rules vary by locale, with German, for >> example (he's employed at a Swiss-German institution, I believe), >> having different conventions than English, and American English >> different than British English. >> >> But an example from American English for illustration, derived from >> Denis' examples. >> >> "A simple quote" [cite:@doe]. >> >> When rendered, that should be this in an author-date style: >> >> "A simple quote" (Doe 2021). >> >> ... and this in a note style: >> >> "A simple quote."[^1] >> >> So that rule would suggest something like: >> >> - if a citation concludes a sentence, move the note mark and whatever >> trailing quotation mark, outside the period. >> >> But, Denis continues, "While this is perfectly acceptable in American >> English, it is not in German, or even in British English. Here we have >> to know whether the final period is part of the original quotation. If >> yes, it will be put inside the quotes, otherwise outside." I'll paste >> the rest of his examples at the end. >> >> It's possible his rule here is more general, and would still be >> acceptable in American English. > > The idea is this: make use of a "quote" style and abuse the item > prefix for the quote content? > > So using his example: > > [cite/quote:;A simple quote. @doe20] > > A processor could then know the citation is associated with a quote > that ends a sentence, vs (note missing period): > > [cite/quote:;A simple quote @doe20] > > ... and then more easily adjust accordingly, without needing to know > anything about the surrounding punctuation. > > Does that make sense? Reminds me a bit of how the latex csquotes package works, which is often used together with biblatex, it even was developped by the original biblatex author before he mysteriously disappeared about a decade ago. In addition to simple commands like \enquote{something} that simply render the argument in quotes this package also has more complex commands such as \textcquote or blockcquote. With these commands you can combine a quotation with a citation: \textcquote[〈prenote〉][〈postnote〉]{〈key〉}[〈punct〉]{〈text〉} 〈tpunct〉 \textcquote[45]{doe}[.]{This is the quotation} Note the punctuation of the original quote is included in a special argument in brackets. If the period weren't part of the quotation, you'd simply do: \textcquote[45]{doe}{This is the quotation}. Regarding the proposal: I think that could go in the right direction, but in the current form it has the downside that you can't use the prefix anymore, right? What about keeping this separate, like so: [quote: A simple quote.][cite: @doe p. 45] But maybe even that is not necessary, and there might be simpler ways. WDYT? Denis