From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id EGPLG5XnsGGwDgEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 18:12:53 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id OP1nF5XnsGHmDgAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 17:12:53 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C8E84563 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 18:12:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:39202 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mv0Uu-0000M6-5U for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 12:12:52 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52332) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mv0QG-0002fj-7s for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 12:08:04 -0500 Received: from [2a00:f10:305:0:1c00:d8ff:fe00:461] (port=57127 helo=se08.route25.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mv0QD-00055h-Df for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 12:08:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 18:07:35 +0100 From: Russell Adams To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <87sfv75s4r.fsf@posteo.net> <87o85vbb9a.fsf@localhost> <87y24zs40r.fsf@posteo.net> <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87ilw3419x.fsf@gmail.com> <87o85v9la3.fsf@localhost> <87a6he4ngu.fsf@gmail.com> <87k0gf5hud.fsf@localhost> <87tufjt8r1.fsf@gmail.com> <87zgpbuktz.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87zgpbuktz.fsf@web.de> X-Originating-IP: 2a00:f10:400:2:425:b2ff:fe00:1c1 X-SpamExperts-Domain: out.pcextreme.nl X-SpamExperts-Username: 2a00:f10:400:2:425:b2ff:fe00:1c1 X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xiExUbNqvmdkLSOzf1W2Y3z8hkeSqZT0W1YMl0fRDa99cV PSoHm0W/3adFfiYl2nsI1K/SCAmCsLGrGtT3gvhB/T4GcPvCLvSpAEEGy7kYxsD3QRUnhlexiXT3 xXuXeIhevFP+kOiMW3ZJfjMJYMEj+gaXrHkgRC7/tI3CjXmVylI3hUR174TAU8LiLVUzcV3Hh0cQ L0Ci0sRm4Wh/iZxm6GtiR/ZS57IrkuRfCYlnnsztdQUSqk/AeLi65+4s/LrywTM2yEHEhvC9Izsy /NENTMQ3Kg3hL2oXz5A5E5R/dS4GkJ5hfB+qWugfDEytZYoACfRtBjLzEjgIZNLWhI/Mshn3T8Ox KyIrAogwLlirll+u0Sc2bgjgy6NE5WzPnrJ1fJyKyenPq733oZ8bAyJmHQrtppYmxMktfUX7kfB+ UdezYqxGMqsKjARq8PBC4qgxMmglBiLsgrvXOb7qEGUwgxHIagHkgJmlqPNWnLI1oovhSJcbnX/H QqL/X9rNCJCc6iESJvKm1NV8gkr+Wu8ScVDXinOVyuIpITQ9z3M3DKRYyu3V3HFYBcnRP4AYwep/ j5YYrbryQC7BeYbD8SZG5oyPdqvJbdilYQ3bQuUf0Zk6MLOzhhdqNE2kiVXiZjmU3N4ZhVoH1pmm yTTQxMSuO//0FC8uiskn7aSYNbeQyvBJHk8ADhzinZv9bpdoS3UnmNnGBopB1JwatBv87d2RLOjr OwwGI3kKu05JnDlv7nAKet5ATEVyvcD3zonKMui8c+OUp6hNZ2VhCBZKb+A6iPg8NGrhBSlTYXv+ RODaczWJtOdgWzIJ1RTrAQjsifShUta6zKLYFHpsoAaWLuiuiNaC014Vy40HEXgl5C8scH0/gH24 cC/XVmH4TU+iDjl5k1c1t3FSvMI7d3CD2zPY9R/2gMGq0KWAzmMf+ibVDgiG9/j5qZW3Uf+gmMUZ GzglarSqmECMkPHOyvTSaWak76WS0gK94wcwLRgYWRwLFAmGZionQ8jFfz1/t0tMyqxPcEm80uax Dm7HyfjBsRHHPEeHyrAUT/s1ZQVvZW+9gG3TxtzLdFtJRh4rDAtZPKA= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@semaster01.route25.eu X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:f10:305:0:1c00:d8ff:fe00:461 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:f10:305:0:1c00:d8ff:fe00:461; envelope-from=rladams@adamsinfoserv.com; helo=se08.route25.eu X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638983573; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=hR0f+X9r8nFx3IUiWH+ce3FdMKnCQZActgQIiUiONaM=; b=OzY+lOr9NcmbMeaa87wlty/EMmf51jN/P+b4fO/Hn1/8IcqDRcA0jcOCsqINFoF7SKZ9FK isB7YIejf2z4iaD5SUxB5KNk7JBowiWqY7pIp2xGrjap3Ylft4q74g3Kaa/s5g5TKE6eO9 V/Ew+WGg0ix+HwkPPm8IxSqKqdyaEMBlIrX0yKA1BcUo63DMgFh3RZJCdoevgVroBaBopG mRBUs18fL4/3Wg4jU6jaDzXq8JFFxwD1Xw6jtWMk/CBwbmAJDft4dCjVdr3ElCb4ezR8Yr aNocMxgglN2kXc3JxYF7Nh/2yQhoFHB3hkPu8jAsX9GGfxlcsNEhSg/eSoQ4iw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638983573; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=tcAj4JIp5huAq8iJ+oEzAaVIinyXG4v7QvNloVkpRr2XKXAWzy/ut6gpEvC68LYWVhbKJ6 w1tWWsdH8N8rwmFTQnxoTh1HprgAVR91AHM1ErHggFOt2JFvQXbdbUEVm9uhxCxXWZDnMa IodVDTNCktUVr15tnBuDipH/T0EIzjp73TceerhMRkUJRYtS5sGqa1a0MKTwuDvPRtp6Qb j0Kx1NU7MxxqP0sDzKJMVRqAjWW7Wr18ja2HslrOgKA9xV6UDMaxO2BUfR3nQdH7f0wPFl SjqZDVVGFPr0hTHhR3U4fMef5enRq2j6wxTw8r06Zv2bgy2fY+Ve5j0IbyTjmA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.45 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 0C8E84563 X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: FbPFt06aB+UL On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 05:16:20PM +0100, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > > Tim Cross writes: > > > Backwards compatibility is important and changes should never be done > > lightly. However, that doesn't mean they don't occur (we have already > > had breaking changes, so old org files are likely to have issues > > already). Backwards compatibility can also become a burden and > > I already spent several hours fixing old presentations, because of org > format changes, so I want to put in a strong vote for backwards > compatibility. I agree completely. Luckily org-lint provides great insights into changes. Reading the release notes between major versions is a good idea. I have found that anytime I've had a problem it was well documented in the release notes, and that I simply neglected to read them. > If you have 1400 slides of lectures, all carefully laid out to convey > information as best as possible, and you realize a few days before the > lecture when you want to update them that the layout is broken, because > of some minor change in interpretation of empty headlines in org-beamer > export so you have to go over each slide individually to make sure that > nothing is cut off and no layout is broken — and check the compile to > latex many times until the layout is working again — that is a huge > cost. I don't see this as much different from the issues encountered with compiling code with libraries. During development you have to freeze libraries you're working against. After an update, you'll have to check again. I've had this come up in my professional documents on occasion, and I've developed habits to help. For instance: - Every file gets an export header template and all settings are done there. - Exported documents must never depend on variables in my init.el. All variables must be stored as file local variables if they required customization against Org defaults. - I run org-lint first if I suspect a problem. - I pay latex experts to make my templates so I don't have to. - Anything outside of basic Org syntax, tables and source blocks I do directly in latex. Images are a good example. I will use latex code for the image, sizing, orientation, etc instead of relying on Org's extended syntax for image links, caption, and attributes. As a result my publishing has been pretty consistent for customer documents. I also only update my Org between projects. ;] ------------------------------------------------------------------ Russell Adams RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ Fingerprint: 1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3