From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4J1UI0hXrmFyEgAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 19:32:40 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id EGz2HkhXrmEwHAAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 18:32:40 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CCDC2C2A9 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 19:32:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47842 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muIn0-0003BU-M8 for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 13:32:38 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33762) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muIl6-000229-CC for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 13:30:40 -0500 Received: from se12.route25.eu ([185.95.31.168]:43942) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muIl2-0003wt-L6 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 13:30:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 19:30:12 +0100 From: Russell Adams To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <87y24zs40r.fsf@posteo.net> <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87pmqasws7.fsf@posteo.net> <878rwyi8bt.fsf@posteo.net> <87r1aqnu3q.fsf@gmail.com> <8735n6i4br.fsf@posteo.net> <796107.1638785063@apollo2.minshall.org> <87tufl6apx.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Originating-IP: 2a00:f10:400:2:446:66ff:fe00:2ce X-SpamExperts-Domain: out.pcextreme.nl X-SpamExperts-Username: 2a00:f10:400:2:446:66ff:fe00:2ce X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xiExUbNqvmdkLSOzf1W2Y3z8hkeSqZT0W1YMl0fRDa99cV PSoHm0W/3adFfiYl2ntE0dSiYt1oO6zJRd42HY+a/T4GcPvCLvSpAEEGy7kYxsD3QRUnhlexiXT3 xXuXeIhevFP+kOiMW3ZJfjMJYMEj+gaXrHkgRC7/tI3CjXmVylI3hUR174TAU8LiLVUzcV3Hh0cQ L0Ci0sRm4Wh/iZxmIh7KPOCjtDjCJbuSnMNTpcztdQUSqk/AeLi65+4s/LrywTM2yEHEhvC9Izsy /NENTMQ3Kg3hL2oXz5A5E5R/dS4GkJ5hfB+qWugfDEytZYoACfRtBjLzEjgIZNLWhI/Mshn3T8Ox KyIrAogwLlirll+u0Sc2bgjgy6NE5WzPnrJ1fJyKyenPq733oZ8bAyJmHQrtppYmxMktfUX7kfB+ UdezYqxGMqsKjARq8PBC4qgxMmglBiLsgrvXOb7qEGUwgxHIagHkgJmlqPNWnLI1oovhSJcbnX/H QqL/X9rNCJCc6iESJvKm1NV8gkr+Wu8ScVDXinOVyuIpITQ9z3M3DKHTJKUszoTkZ7Os22LS8m7Z Kiwjw0C1988hbp8bzgwgOb4Fw6xpJ1K1cc2QltK45YJ3mJdgm5kNXP0WDog0Kp4tdrkYn/wKWJ8h B0FiD1FXTQ6AFTayP6dTZsf3XPpdTq+KYtpF3nxXYahoXWdm6kUveJLCXKCo2jIhLzbZC/Cbx6fl tbaaPuCmX416XzZpXq3zmN1DVbvEznYzgq9IOJtPA4F9Q9WJlaDetk2qMU+UQ2ftKMYSwlXQE9M6 7mF3F93yI29RGRWPUiatw5cM27yWIHAXDMBAknJAivSl1ImN75T156Daw4/c5VjDM8pOdtUnMYK0 vnyeXpwhz0hTn8xcsMtIxtWbKiv1dqoEW4NNYnNGFdRN3CtPPBjSHkIxZf89t3Bogbw/eNnvoySd S4xGsrVQ6Z0POpPUqTFWuATUoSyaA1TzQpMNBxbB7RLiYFYq922Wf+VLnUUJCa5XEkPBdYzH5SHs 7OXwC7D2RhUakVeP0KKaUuURe5cMAahC9AqyQAnpqFMUCHx10ohhTE8xL7hrJSk60SF3F6RYOYr2 X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@semaster01.route25.eu Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.95.31.168; envelope-from=rladams@adamsinfoserv.com; helo=se12.route25.eu X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638815560; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=Lc9tV2UTcjgGGmuHoe/gHxbV9eHk1LaNFl3KmFnDI4M=; b=I1CMr9iIdQcPNLA6gYf5HahCz/NP03CFkICoWrj3ScEgfKUZQMyDhqY4PubJptaeG7zCCH hRfao341ZdJ8MYaLHIB5OurCLkt8/SMprgle5LC9MrxIHy/eLG1/KVyVxD9PNnqtyYw9VK Or5riMjueUls0sqJHziaySxHQHDULBf2Gp14FaB3UbaUnzMQdN3Q5ELu1TeeWfKKnM5uNt RezgYAcYZ0ucCDfSszrow83WlH5S2HXy0WOVPfnPbt/ZNgw7xqQHqAULpj0wTpnP/BZotX qtb7lazGnbYX1Or3P9LntTstSZP/E2ZcuwQSzNCzlKYOqcnYRrz4zDEGF/Aebw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638815560; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=HGczjqpQdGfvLovw1BB/8HM89HyehSOPmeL29RQkC5VeriHL9eJf933mzsemM6UEsCcqR1 VATI/hRwse1cDSmEe9Pcel0Ca/WEgGSfmE7MwGWVAYz8EmZdVt1W15XqwOi1NL2CjREO8e pDolCbdMBnI6QKdwyxsCGGOorl0pQTI8G7pe4RHCYNLK0icYwJz4HLigtFpeAZ4QXDItmO 54ONZqARK7PZOJK7+EO7N+nn/K1ppp2w5qj4MwWYFlprPKBKGN3kqlmW7KuGRyUV2yxiRJ FeDcE/cI8SSbBjvJLWG0BsyrJwx7E7/yz+hseaQmuI3ZHj6HfcAFsdnlPKxytg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.44 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 1CCDC2C2A9 X-Spam-Score: -2.44 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: he/4LuydFwVC On Mon, Dec 06, 2021 at 09:59:42AM -0800, Tom Gillespie wrote: > I think it is a major strategic mistake to exclude discussions > about interoperability from this list. I don't think discussion on the list (or irc) is a problem. It's all on topic if it's related to Org-mode. As you said, users and developers share the mailing list. Just understand as an Emacs mode, it's Emacs oriented and Emacs is the priority. The truth is Org doesn't work outside Emacs. The issue is when non-Emacs enhancements or feature requests are made to the maintainers and coders. I don't think anyone is hostile to interoperability, but hostile to additional workload. I've watched Org since shortly after it's creation snowball features nonstop until it burned out coders. I feel like every power user with a new edge case feature wants it added to the Org core, and that's just not sustainable. That's why I'm very cautious about advocating for new features, or potential burdens external interoperability may place on our volunteers. > I follow this list, I keep the community up to date with my work, > I have no idea where to look for other Org related dicussions, IRC. #org-mode on Libera. > Whether a certain portion of the Org community likes it or not, > there is another portion for whom Org syntax already has a life > beyond Org mode (e.g. academic papers and computation notebook > style workflows). Ideally written with Emacs, and the source blocks processed by Emacs. I can't imagine any of the data science source blocks working in any environment outside Emacs today. If other programs try to replicate Org's features that's fine in the spirit of open source, but what support do we owe their implementations? At what point does their project impose a maintenance burden on our volunteers? That's what we need to be careful of. Perhaps it's worth noting the clear distinction between Org's plain text format and the Org experience inside Emacs. I think that the plain text format in it's simplest forms may be interpreted by external tools (ie: README.org on Github is HTML formatted). I don't expect any tools outside of Emacs to provide the Org editing experience. > The plain text nature of Org syntax and the freedom that it enables > also means freedom from Emacs. Empowering users to own and control > their own data to use with their own tools is the whole point. The > fact that this means that it works outside Emacs is a critical > feature for many data preservation use cases. Certainly Org is future proof because it's plain text. There's a big difference between future proofed and openly legible versus programming two way interoperability between Emacs and an external tool. Just ask any synchronization tool. ;] In summary, don't assume hostility to interoperability. Please respect the limited time of our coders and maintainers, and the additional burdens on them that may be implied by supporting external programs. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Russell Adams RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ Fingerprint: 1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3