From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id gMzmMFmJ2mPcswAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 16:46:33 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id CEXrMFmJ2mOtTAEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 16:46:33 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C1441F2D1 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2023 16:46:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNFIx-0003Ka-F3; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 10:45:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNFIs-0003FN-BK for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 10:45:42 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pNFId-00024b-Hm for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 10:45:42 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.239.7.190]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103A90.0000000063DA8914.0000517E; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 08:45:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2023 18:41:38 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: Christian Moe , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Ihor Radchenko , Christian Moe , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <63c9d976.620a0220.a7d40.113b@mx.google.com> <87tu0mjb24.fsf@tsdye.online> <63ca1283.170a0220.5bc81.0fdd@mx.google.com> <87pmb9k8oi.fsf@tsdye.online> <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost> <2150768.1675077958@archlinux> <87tu063ox2.fsf@localhost> <87r0v9sio1.fsf@christianmoe.com> <87edr9lgq6.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87edr9lgq6.fsf@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL=0.141, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1675266393; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=sVMWCMeTpnM/gYG/3siovsgjv+1z5tiPZZqEB7WqQodRAzs3Wiei+OdNIHuQYHgHeok71Z aIicSjLYRrp+OIEHXGLMO896wBFA9jpHC4z3K79AHl39KnVL0GoxUpuOgp0BilLiffYROx y1EuCEN2NCDJitqljdq9thN0LJFR3IaIG0iill0bnUjijeINCBqJG8ChFotte/PMExP9oi +UngO9Hot5cBdllv3WhJKcKfLpFGpzvV7Ki7U995VMuUo2cHb7GojBYmBDrSk8NN1kn9ZD GB+eVvaslaVY5XTnPoIYoI9nncGD42swqWVhNPnzWwAr310uKYgF7OnPlzYz8Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1675266393; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=ECnUu7XKbNS9ujmNWhpbnmSkcJ2O1opuYaAjcP7Wu8E=; b=FDqiUZcJT3Ocf6BfY00hXrHVQKVUb/N2ipGu1xAXAl8w6abHIQEkiMs6qIdVKcgnp0wXsl 8tyrFxSn7oIguyGL3bcYxM2Rs7+tC4DNlvpOCk7HcoH5cq4MJ7+7ETk9V0OaIRAv70CCia wRI5FeMbtrHz78Gh+D0FVY+R6Zx6Qchu5L4/0mzB/ciChPF6uSs2zztBQ9ITr6RT1LHdg6 a2bvXvJlSCsqo54zf35mBYtvOAEcGGFkQdaeNE516QBvoO/3I1M2FGf9RThWuY2BzpZf+v 8aC9dPt3uhQelsxdcWKQl1Rq2W6G182KD4jV68Jno8nsZUUPPa+PgQlB3VMM8g== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 2.42 X-Spam-Score: 2.42 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 8C1441F2D1 X-TUID: v1h2g7DtXLZc * Ihor Radchenko [2023-02-01 15:23]: > [2022-11-12 14:00 @UTC+2] > [2022-11-12 14:00 @UTC-2:30] > > are also fine within the proposed format. The above format is unclear to me. I look at timestamps every day, too many, often change them. I cannot understand what you mean. If there is considered UTC time zone, then the only prefix for such time stamp is +00 and nothing else, or no prefix at all. The time stamps that specify UTC offset are expressed in local time, not in UTC time. Here are few examples of ordinary usage of UTC offset converted to UTC: 2023-01-07 09:21:11.019166+03 which means: 2023-01-07 06:21:11.019166 @UTC 2022-10-05 14:09:04.79737+03 which means: 2022-10-05 11:09:04.79737 @UTC Due to that ordinary usage of time stamps, something like @UTC+2 where you specify 14:00 o'clock, is unclear, if you mean UTC time plus 2, like 16 o'clock, or you mean 12 o'clock. Time stamps having UTC offset are in their representation such as in calendar tied to the time zone, as they maybe are derived from system time, where time zone need not be displayed in the time stamp, but it is nevertheless there and used by program to derive the UTC offset. And it is either UTC time, or local time plus UTC offset. There is no UTC time plus UTC offset, why would anybody need that as time stamp? -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/