From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id qEXxJSIb2WPwJwAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:44:02 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id OMauJSIb2WPOOAAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:44:02 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57199C22A for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 14:44:01 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pMqna-0002cf-Tq; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 08:35:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pMqnY-0002c0-Vz for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 08:35:44 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pMqnS-0004UT-Lv for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 08:35:41 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.85.240.173]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000010B84A.0000000063D917F9.00003E2B; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 06:30:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 16:02:18 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Max Nikulin Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Max Nikulin , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <87pmb9k8oi.fsf@tsdye.online> <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> <63d43ec5.630a0220.87fac.44e2@mx.google.com> <63d6d931.170a0220.84f9f.11fd@mx.google.com> <63d83f1d.170a0220.f1df3.e85f@mx.google.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1675172641; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=VXfklNq9cl3uWMZAPRHrq45Uyga8+bjLMn/POQXKsAHgXNtng7+pR/35Wf0EQVqNvkNlHb pM5OPeKlwSBucAAO1Uq2LM6BXtmJAUyc2zIHR+8AGir/BdPgUGgQ4kRlQMpwbktSpLUQv0 yBaS2lAZXE8VzvAHMZPYnZs+owON1m53uzW0tA2tc6o6ab8yWLe7bMRat9N9U3siHi7rHd t1ReLXt+OhfiF4Y1BaEFPR7k6nSZwYuIg1L9Yw0QzRZfoyiezKJsMAMbSu9sFZXBGcpODF ZDeoPLYm9wusO/C9shkhZ3v6e7Eblk6VxTePt6QKpSorDQGp2Bm0aB9G/oqA8g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1675172641; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=0c+juc3fz/k5aGgYDXEbf+nMoD6yDx/l7v2IL1lAsTY=; b=uC2+4PPmL7iy9mFbjeePpeknOE4VZINhITPcvAkxqXUNRUJbmCLZqkHeHMo8nK9eBE/Wsj hG76018phS3U2PNJChrqInO60qWdWCcxayuOCUsAnqOHfZtROw7wBF+8fL/u0B8fWj/uBE bYYQA0SKNijA+6VrWLuV6h/brFQ6VEZxl8sTRfrOnoTU1UfcdPsuLviFU1NosM6570Nr/B P+rwTkert57a0uUyedBiObJB7XeohnizvaCp3kn5cMZVT13FasAFAMiS5MOqvsRCGqqWfL YqN7PX46COD3NjAAfVuDAsPjBtEyWIKI1F1J/W43bbQEsBTkHIDihw4A7/MR/A== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.88 X-Spam-Score: -0.88 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 57199C22A X-TUID: zHd1yvALYtIQ * Max Nikulin [2023-01-31 11:16]: > On 31/01/2023 14:04, Jean Louis wrote: > > I have given facts, and references with the sole intention to help in > > understanding so that Org programmers do not start relying on UTC > > offset alone, as that is not how other programs work. > > From my point of view at the beginning you were promoting that Org must use > purely UTC timestamps just because PostgreSQL recommends timestamptz > type. I am not promoter of "UTC timestamps", you have mixed me maybe with some other person. Last time you misquoted me. That PostgreSQL recommends time stamp with time zone is only in so far related to Org as for program design decisions. There is plethore of other programs using time, just look in any calendar and underground. I do not promote anything, I give suggestions to developers to make decisions that will not impact people. My proposal is not that what you describe, but I will repeat it here for clarity: - Timestamps may be left how they are now with small addition - Time stamp could get time zone (I never said UTC, neither UTC offset) -- I would myself never suggest to people to place timestamps in time zone, but to simply use the local system time zone. Case to use time stamps with time zone would be then when such time stamp is isolated in the whole Org file and as such, the task has to be sent to other people, shared, or published. This is finely grained. - Heading could have time zone property, then all time stamps in that heading would easily be calculated for sharing purposes. - If not heading, then user could set up file #+TIMEZONE property, if such is or should be different to system time zone - Without any settings in Org, Org may use system time zone to calculate future time difference. And I said that is in Emacs Lisp similar to logical OR: timestamp-time-zone OR heading-time-zone OR file-time-zone OR system-time-ZONE So please do not misinterpret and reiterate what I never proposed or suggested. > Now you are insisting that every timestamp must have timezone with > rules describing DST and other transitions. Absolutely not, I cannot find myself in your description. > In both cases you are doing it with excessive passion. You are free to describe it as you wish. And? > Currently you are arguing with people who have already agreed that > location-based timezones are important, e.g. Tim and Thomas. I am in > doubts if it is helpful to someone. I do not argue with people nothing as because of their name or position, as people are not object of discussion. Neither my last writing was related to "location based time zone" but to UTC offset. All my writing is directed to Org developers to get access to references before making any decisions how to calculate times. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/