From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id b7VUMUWfw2O00wAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 07:37:57 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id 48bBL0Wfw2PZbQAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 07:37:57 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 183AA8EA5 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 07:37:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pGwdu-000308-AS; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 01:37:22 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pGwdp-0002zp-Nl for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 01:37:19 -0500 Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pGwdn-00067W-AB for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 01:37:17 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:To:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=YpbDcAF1w7NKdQaTdAYAM5ze8VUOa4Yt+J94fWwwbmo=; b=bgrnckq/YGfheRTfSSatEfae5m 6afb7xl4fF2CBo9ZTu/36GmPaI0cZR6r+AIVWNWZgDbXVf5xrS8wYbxD4bQ9/nC4iTR1ykNPx9VAL 3F6cMgqmwu8R4YE0K6TAZbn78tHxbbg18AavwNjLAT5HL+3eUrm8UWBnyTKPMllz+w3uCq9OKRUWk vlu8HJoH92ohv4wqfg7Xx5lUMAJ/6eR6USWn35dAro4AS+pXtPECikrmYRXvUoHhQaBO5vMiX5/Y1 7pADTEK81X6f9XxH0AZP0Ygjhj/DN7TUxDHdoB+u85gTtMDaHBBErogh9+juMJ9kGXERL/bcePtlM BUvepvFg==; Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1pGwdj-0002OP-T8 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 07:37:11 +0100 Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2023 07:37:11 +0100 To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Message-ID: References: <63c30f34.650a0220.498b8.4573@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jlOegShiXnjSeXmf" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63c30f34.650a0220.498b8.4573@mx.google.com> From: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tuxteam.de header.s=mail header.b="bgrnckq/"; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1673764677; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=QpUL2qwexbgdXzcf5JEtU4jPVv2Hsff93AfvGeMK5i1XKA6Qh9jQP8TT+JcFpg9e8ggN+E k4kkKQNqyFAxEHA5DlhzGBAmqozvKDtgzE3wu+ETfGu8bPYH2/ZuiQCd5F4ShFa0xsE9EN v/beDwtszUDHmWA4oD//mt+2Wn+MS60YooEcy+mQe3fjVX9MfgJDGzGwxjuS35ymZzvtBd 8qfh/AJy2JwqZaqi1UhwBVU3DYH4SfDPO5B3/QzMUd4J0LWO3iKCEQLa8uaSXw8skTOJBr tOksCRWrbpDXl6yFlLbYzrDEjW+ebKmnU9d5wIF1+ogtRGbSfmZM1ZKlYRiXbA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1673764677; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=YpbDcAF1w7NKdQaTdAYAM5ze8VUOa4Yt+J94fWwwbmo=; b=CpKbz3vIBB81yL2aXtTvZu1CN94ePVmjWRpbw+xQS/m7g/kOLOHQlmfT+JEJWJfegNQsvh szXLje3B/HIQocMLYfJjZNHcW3RfeRWcOjI+cfhkNsFd43Iog21CzDVJSrw7uimWXN7a7o eVp229km2Ey9YOyzGPtpep3OJTpPt8MHxXJKjuZlcLU37x9Hrg/4QY2QP7mjAQY2d0sIKy 7qijX7szrHAWvfjl/1DEqT0egmSrOwm3lMnuVTB44s2KI3JcNAqlCmR+EPxw4W4gimVcgo nmmWpG2xQ8PV7/DoDsVjJGPG5slYFKsAQI+v66baoa7iP0nqE/uAn8UStY8Muw== X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 183AA8EA5 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tuxteam.de header.s=mail header.b="bgrnckq/"; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.02 X-Spam-Score: -3.02 X-TUID: /5NoTLU7VJtf --jlOegShiXnjSeXmf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 15, 2023 at 06:43:19AM +1100, Tim Cross wrote: > Max Nikulin writes: >=20 > > On 14/01/2023 20:08, Jean Louis wrote: > >> * Max Nikulin [2023-01-14 10:14]: > >>> Let's assume <2023-01-15 Sun 09:00 +1> > >>> > >>> It may be suitable for timestamps in the past, but future is more tri= cky. > >>> There is no problem if you are going to watch Lunar eclipse. However = if your > >>> plan is to attend a local event there is a chance that you will arriv= e at > >>> wrong time. Sometimes offset of timezones is changed and it may happen > >>> between the moment when you added a scheduled time and the moment of = the > >>> event. > >> Can't follow you. > >> with "+1" I would say it is time zone. > >> Basic point is that users shall learn to express themselves by using > >> time zone. > > > > "+1" is not a timezone, it is current offset shared by several timezone= s. You can not > > assure that time offset at a particular location would not change due t= o new > > administrative rules. > > > > E.g. Europe/Berlin is a timezone, but, strictly speaking, is still > > underspecified. Sometimes timezones are split into smaller parts. >=20 > Yes, this is a problem. We really want a symbolic TZ > specification and we would need 'smarts' i the timestamp generation code > that is able to handle potential offset changes due to daylight savings > transition etc. Even then, the transition time can change between when > the timestamp is set for and when it actually occurs. Having wrangled that (outside Emacs) for a while, I politely disagree. If it's the past we are talking about, the offset is most of the time the right thing (we know best at timestamp creation time). When it's the future /and/ we are talking about local time, then the symbolic time zone makes more sense (e.g. we meet in Lviv next Monday at 3pm, whatever 3pm is in that timezone). I think we need (optionally) both. Well knowing that some dates with some symbolic time zones are ambiguous. For a log file (past times), for example, I would insist in having the offset (actually I'd try to talk people into having UTC, but have failed at times with that). 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