From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id gAVSKPe/tWNGCwEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 19:05:43 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4INkKPe/tWNcTQEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 19:05:43 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57A563B4FA for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 19:05:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pD88H-0005rL-FL; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 13:04:57 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pD88G-0005r5-2F for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 13:04:56 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pD889-0007cs-3j for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 13:04:51 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.239.10.238]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000055D5E.0000000063B5BFC1.00000754; Wed, 04 Jan 2023 11:04:48 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2023 20:51:03 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Eduardo Ochs Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Export Org with Org concept -- Re: Problems with C-c C-e file.org, Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Eduardo Ochs , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <878rj469sk.fsf@localhost> <877cy673ot.fsf@localhost> <87edsckkym.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, GAPPY_SUBJECT=0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1672855543; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=U9aN1vJ084LLsbgR9fiEbejTQPb/A+RrLiVkaQ5yvLYT84g5No3yvNd0Tdp2T3yFWPgEoh xVuxpaG9GvxUpczlnenjXS+zA6EP/txRJ61cygaUROg/z5NLsy8mCatprHs+9VRM2OmG6/ bRwlXDG71SDtmTL8fqHUhJCiCeEcuCOkgj/maMjQ2MVbIFWsivSfcgqH9TvmlFVpiP/+WK 98/yfMg7JBN4f1Ol3yfyxRj0TeZGVlBD1EPAHyK/4MgKJZqY5H1n/35QmxLGbacNBNUNml tfn67FDL6nv/nP2AINwDU6tkyMDs+9qwcf2wT37JWaLxooxgFxNsaUg2EbIEyA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1672855543; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=jz5pzm80jbSCDmoJnCgYcN5PgVC6gmAj5GvL1gkq4SU=; b=JbRNht8o/p0MKccIPvLfwQ+zMQ1oz8y30N4yg8F1TwZ3nWYot6gaBZHR4gYHtnQWtPltGL JRgToIKSkf3lKnxxQOMKcxGiPfYDl1kH9ABfLB/CVaY7iGMcCqPRER1Eus//NfhuuyQ7Ey fqGJzeCGR+GjCEVyWd47ssdsk19PKARButBa9r61cKWxF5XtJaoVPf/SDbIAdwjei2uL+L V6r4GE6UpvPVMOOwL0dMeYEPnKDNbSLFBVpykHgt+RXJJGis0bpcGxinfq1ShpTzxE7e7E eDb+XAnjqztNYZYyBMXl8/v1jREdgS66gDhKUDSMzVKBvnZCfjNFFc+S0JGwqg== X-Spam-Score: -3.16 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 57A563B4FA Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.16 X-TUID: Je7udCPZ//Lv > Can you send to me - here to the mailing list - a version of > `org-export-dispatch', and also of other functions if needed, in which > the parts that call `read-char-exclusive' are replaced by something > non-blocking? There is no Org version of menu that does not block. That it is there is due to initial notion that some functions should be run on single key, which is not bad in itself. Then people followed and continued developing on that foundation creating tangled functions. (find-function 'org-export--dispatch-ui) So in Org, currently, there is only the blocking way. Functions in Org Export or Org Agenda, can't be inspected interactively by using commands like {C-h k}, you can inspect sources directly. What you are asking is what my package offers: GNU Emacs package: rcd-org-export.el -- use Org to export Org: https://gnu.support/gnu-emacs/packages/GNU-Emacs-package-rcd-org-export-el-use-Org-to-export-Org-76272.html You may inspect how functions look like: (find-function 'org-html-export-as-html) Then description: org-html-export-as-html is an autoloaded interactive byte-compiled Lisp function in ‘ox-html.el’. (org-html-export-as-html &optional ASYNC SUBTREEP VISIBLE-ONLY BODY-ONLY EXT-PLIST) Basically ASYNC, SUBTREEP, VISIBLE-ONLY and BODY-ONLY are expected to be either NON-NIL or NIL, and by using those switches, you use the function to export. What the function: (find-function 'org-export--dispatch-ui) does is making sure to "highlight" (irony) when user press this or that key, like when user press the highlighted "h", that then the subsequent key like "H" appears highlighted, indicating to user that after pressing first key, there are just few other options left. Then in general Org Export works like this: First the underlying information: - It recognizes which export are available. What is worse, because of the not well taught design every OTHER package for Org export lean on the same blocking interface foundation, and keep adding to it! This is because developers of extensions for Emacs do not have other choice, or their package would not be included in org-export-dispatch Bad design, dictates more bad design. And if you ask me, of course that even simple change to interface creates havoc in all of those known and unknown Org export packages. Then there is the Org Broom that makes sure some apparently large, objectively small problems, end up under the carpet. Then visibly what Org Export does for user is following: - Show to user options to toggle variables like ASYNC, SUBTREEP, VISIBLE-ONLY, BODY-ONLY, they are supposed to be handled in real time. - Recognize which various exports among hundreds of them are available and display them for user to press one among hundreds of possible key combinations - Then export function is invoked with paramenters ASYNC SUBTREEP VISIBLE-ONLY BODY-ONLY EXT-PLIST, while some exports not support all of them To develop export library requires adapting to previously embedded or hard coded expectation of mainstream Org. Notion is now that the interface will be changed to transient, which does something similar more or less. I don't know of mouse support in transient, but what I have seen, it does not look like it. For you to make eev based export is easy, just toggling of variables and recognizing which export options are there, generating temporary eev buffers as usual. Objective reality points ------------------------ - Within Emacs there are many multi key commands. If user wish to see which key follows which key, can use packages like `which-key' or similar. Thus, it is superficial to involve some kind of highlighting single keys. That idea could have work very good for developer who made it. If I get used to it and acquire habit of it, I will keep using it and develop more by same principle. - That toggling variables need blocking screen is not coherent, as it doesn't. A derived mode may define any keys, and instead of "C-b" there can be simply "b" for "body-only" toggling. - Using control key, like C-b, to toggle variables makes sense only in writable buffers. - For each single export users are forced by design to again click "C-c C-e" and again invoke "h H" or other similar functions. This fact alone makes Org less usable. - Using emacsclient during Org Export is not feasible. - Emacs get blocked. - It ignores mouse and normal keyboard movements, it blocks Emacs and invoking emacsclient during Org Export or Org Agenda gives surprising impossible looking effects; this will not change with transient adoption. - Usability get forgotten. - Package RCD Org Export, proves, that export screen may remain all the time visible, without blocking Emacs, and user may within seconds export to various different formats. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/