From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id uGzyEDlq62OMMwEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 12:02:17 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id ALkTEDlq62OVRwEAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 12:02:17 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91A843BB88 for ; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 12:02:16 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pRt49-0006a7-3M; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 06:01:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pRt47-0006Zk-B2 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 06:01:39 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pRt45-0005rI-Er for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 06:01:39 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.85.204.48]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103A05.0000000063EB6A13.00007E21; Tue, 14 Feb 2023 04:01:39 -0700 Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2023 13:45:22 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Heinz Tuechler Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Heinz Tuechler , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <87357i9959.fsf@localhost> <877cwse95m.fsf@localhost> <878rh5eqz4.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1676372537; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=h9nbCGhpHxYAS/gHelKKVZppTdNsud85SRR5vkYxLhTusjR3+9cbrgKWhIGkD7QnhCfdi/ /Hl8dlybboxIRi2WRko5tKJUSDBTobPQI/nrF1GUcvSepsnNVmlB7To8Woejh6CXvZBlkq hjnsuaOe7bpXr+4w0OvubTsR2RCPuqXV2CRDY9fbMwsihGCb4y1XYi4rTJjS5orLKtkXm5 2Qq4/ZPd9eTktDIEBe+kaSsUZuXRGXFuMYCMsA6vu1cXXHmfjePCYGI6pnRSfI0R2f6Ysw CM8dszSuZ76SK6e1Ej9X9uER/MpC+fIZS8NLK1QdeeRbQ2VgtWvq3KHBv1Ct8A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1676372537; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=g76KDhMMp5hFaQeBqeDD3Q78Uqq0E27D9220+8NuTWU=; b=mKsip+aCVGP3zVTx4STPnHKfXidxjwxaz3y9q03XqGS4oPoZTkqAFsGgTzU1UHrhDwxH3b DqcY0x+9SEP0oxDP1wcvUbpjUDemxDUXvZ/d34fH51hQByo8yQwwqqrpOqW8ahQ6QpUjjU vWLgn7k39LGrPAotMzcppoL5e1wX7WvAliyG4dOPRzmsavciq0gFr6OPnNeKItRn10AzTk augHNbJRdYCe56JF8gy9IITV6kj2+kGrkeTpudQrSRiWsWlvREuRXIV881zkqraGGJQYF1 muzd1QSaAlwnBxbhJFu2zOaejL70NzfJAlDeEiZCeOQEYBlxubV42VgIgNeATQ== X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.17 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 91A843BB88 X-Spam-Score: -3.17 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: 4gMm1+l6ejkZ * Heinz Tuechler [2023-02-14 12:44]: > Jean Louis wrote/hat geschrieben on/am 14.02.2023 07:00: > > * tomas@tuxteam.de [2023-02-12 16:50]: > > > On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 12:33:40PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote: > > > > * Ihor Radchenko [2023-02-10 13:48]: > > > > > Jean Louis writes: > > > > > > > > > > > If you start adding in Org "fixed" time with UTC offset, that is a new > > > > > > type of timestamp, as it is not common in world. > > > > > > > > > > It is how ISO8601 defines offsets. > > > > > > > > - did you say you wish to represent time with UTC time zone by using > > > > UTC offset? > > > > > > > > - and I said, UTC time is always without offset, and if any is > > > > represented then it must be +00 > > > > > > > > - and now you say that ISO8601 defines offsets... sorry, you are > > > > confusing me and readers. > > > > > > It is not about "the offset OF UTC". It is about "the offset > > > RELATIVE TO UTC". > > > > Yes, surely is clear to me personally. > > If 2022-11-12 12:00+02 # 12:00 UTC+2 should mean that local time is > 2022-11-12 12:00 and that it is 2 hours _ahead_ of UTC, then it seems > intuitively clear to me. I would assume that holds for many others > as well. Exactly that. Never said anything different. Discussion started from something like this: 2022-11-12 12:00+02 @UTC and that is different case, where Ihor was suggesting that: 2022-11-12 12:00 is UTC time, not local time, where by +02 is offset (I say not UTC offset) to be added or deducted on that time. > > That we got for sure. > > > > Then just representation must be clear: @UTC is unclear in those > > cases, but @RELTOUTC would be clear. > > > > @RELTOUTC seems unfortunate, as it states only the obvious. If at all, > it should be @AHEADUTC or @BEHINDUTC or some abbreviation of it, but as > said above, it seems not necessary to me. As idea I understand Ihor and other person on Internet. But as implementation by using @UTC or by using date time representation as UTC time with offset (not UTC offset), I think it will be confusing for people, unless there is new tag invented to make sure of it. Any idea is fine: 2022-11-12 12:00+02 @UTC-SUM 2022-11-12 12:00+02 @UTC-TO 2022-11-12 12:00+02 @TO-UTC but not 2022-11-12 12:00+02 @UTC As that would be confusing. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/