From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id KDnEOd7V1V9YCAAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 08:50:38 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id oMVuNd7V1V9wOgAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 08:50:38 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17C5A9401BC for ; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 08:50:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:40190 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1koN5Q-0005Jj-PV for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 03:50:36 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39784) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1koN4p-0005JO-JD for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 03:49:59 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:41489) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1koN4n-0001Bj-6R for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 03:49:59 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.30]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000002FEA2.000000005FD5D5B1.00002175; Sun, 13 Dec 2020 01:49:53 -0700 Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2020 11:46:13 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: TRS-80 Subject: Re: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options Message-ID: References: <87im9nri5l.fsf@kyleam.com> <7330ab95c71d5d41d7fa6faffeaf300f@isnotmyreal.name> <20201211082501.GA18715@tuxteam.de> <871rfwctb2.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.30 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 17C5A9401BC X-Spam-Score: -2.30 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: FgyEEOiGYN0B * TRS-80 [2020-12-13 06:34]: :PROPERTIES: :CREATED: [2020-12-13 Sun 11:36] :ID: 2e42666a-d04b-4f46-ba90-a923a5e2c50d :END: > On 2020-12-11 21:35, Jean Louis wrote: > > > > By the way I have completely switched all action management to my > > database system with tabulated list mode. No more using Org for action > > management, only for document, not even short notes. > > It sounds like you have well moved on to another solution by now, > however I did want to point out what I thought was one small factual > inaccuracy. Org files I have always found useful for project and plan documents preparation, in particular LaTeX and PDF export. As that way I get better readability on screen and good printed document. None of such projects and plans need be marked with TODO as its nature is that it is action plan, all items are actionable items. We print a project and execute it. People report on project steps by email. There is no need to write TODO anywhere as printed file cannot be changed easily to DONE, it is redundant marking action list item on the paper with anything but heavy check mark ✔ with initals and date and time when it was completed. Using it for printed projects is not same as using computer. In general it makes more practical sense to export Org files to paper and focus on what has to be done instead on focusing on decorating Org properties or tags as it wastes time. In general I can say that any elementary object has related action. For example URL or hyperlink can demand ACTION. It is equivalent to TODO. A hyperlink may have annotation, description or relations to some pages, people, locations and similar. A paragraph can be elementary object itself. Set of paragraphs could be elementary object. A list item could be elementary object. Any elementary object may be related to person, organization, smaller group of people or other objects, assignee or group as assigned group to conduct the action, maybe related to specific opportunity, business, page in a website revision system, file of any type, tags, or what is else necessary. Things are related. We cannot deny basic fundaments of our life. Software must be there to help align relations in human life and to ease locating related and relevant objects. In general I will prevent working for computer in my future. Computer has to work for me. Those are my personal needs that reflect on the groups positively, reasonably and practically. My staff does not even know that there exists something as "TODO" item. The nature of a document has meaning that projects are to do. > > Org mode have imposed reverse on users where for example a list of > > items is only then completed as DONE when subordinate tasks have been > > completed as DONE > > Unless I am badly mistaken, I think this is only true when > org-enforce-todo-dependencies is non-nil? Variable is nil on my side. - [-] Something - [ ] one - [ ] two - [X] three I cannot mark Something to be done without marking those subordinate items. Changing org-enforce-todo-dependencies does not change anything. User will need to lie to oneself to close those items to become able to close senior item. One would also expect that mentioned variables should influence this type of structured action items, but it does not. It relates only to headings. Org offers list item based actions with - [ ] but does not handle such. ** TODO Buy shoes [1/3] [33%] :PROPERTIES: :CREATED: [2020-12-13 Sun 11:36] :ID: d488c7e5-941a-4ce6-aec3-e1b20e1acd70 :END: - [ ] Visit shop A - [ ] Visit shop B - [X] Visit shop C What is good that this way the senior item can be completed without completing subordinate items. In my opinion that is more human alike. If I do turn on the mentioned variable `org-enforce-todo-dependencies' to TRUE, I can still close the senior objective here. This is good, but variable does not do expected. ** DONE Senior objective CLOSED: [2020-12-13 Sun 11:22] :PROPERTIES: :CREATED: [2020-12-13 Sun 11:36] :ID: 6f2fba8a-925b-4c99-9d62-5f48d433a8cc :END: *** TODO Subordinate action 1 :PROPERTIES: :CREATED: [2020-12-13 Sun 11:36] :ID: 1c3c2da7-c564-43e0-b274-b8f0065624ec :END: *** TODO Subordinate action 2 :PROPERTIES: :CREATED: [2020-12-13 Sun 11:36] :ID: 9cb275fd-fcbf-441c-b42d-62c82aa3ff56 :END: Variable mentions: Its value is t Original value was nil You can customize this variable. Documentation: Non-nil means undone TODO entries will block switching the parent to DONE. Also, if a parent has an :ORDERED: property, switching an entry to DONE will be blocked if any prior sibling is not yet done. Finally, if the parent is blocked because of ordered siblings of its own, the child will also be blocked. > Non-nil means undone TODO entries will block switching the parent to DONE. It obviously does not do that what me as user expects. But I am not asking for solution neither help in solving unsolvable issues around Org related planning as it leads to further complexities. Those issues are really solved on my side as I just use it for documents. These comments are meant for people to design their own maybe better ways than having scattered lists everywhere. Jean