From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id cKIDDUTLxF/bZgAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 10:36:52 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id GMDTCETLxF9SAQAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 10:36:52 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 97B80940148 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 10:36:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:55288 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kjgY6-00024H-EX for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 05:36:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53656) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kjgXc-00023y-Io for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 05:36:20 -0500 Received: from static.rcdrun.com ([95.85.24.50]:46371) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kjgXZ-0006sl-Ab for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 05:36:20 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.47]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by static.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000002C0007.000000005FC4CAFF.000050A8; Mon, 30 Nov 2020 10:35:42 +0000 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:16:19 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Tim Cross Subject: Re: bug#44935: Emacs inserts hardwired org-agenda-files variable, overwriting user options Message-ID: References: <87ft4rrhad.fsf@kyleam.com> <87r1obyabn.fsf@gmail.com> <87lfejy80o.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87lfejy80o.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.85.24.50; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=static.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -2 X-Spam_score: -0.3 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Christopher Dimech , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.78 X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-TUID: z9jUykIF6zMu * Tim Cross [2020-11-30 04:00]: > The issue at this point wasn't about whether there is a problem with how > org manages org-agenda-files or even the acknowledged weakness in the > documentation which needs a patch. The issue here is about attitude and > being respectful. I think it would be best if the actual technical issue would be put attention to and get solved as that is where problem comes from. Every person reporting Emacs bug is very important. Finally it is contributor to Emacs. People use Emacs to handle their life problems. When user stumbles upon an obstacle that is life related obstacle. It has practical meanings related to life that are difficult to realize on distance through a thin medium of email communication. When the true obstacle is not handled it is quite logical that it may lead to frustrations. It may not, but "it may" is enough and one shall try to handle the obstacle and not put attention on frustration that derives from the obstacle, as where one puts attention that is what one gets. Person is not first being surprised that M-x report-emacs-bug is not handled as Emacs Bug. I think that alone is definitely a bug, and we recently discussed it, and here we are again. Good read for participants: GNU Kind Communications Guidelines ================================== Author: Richard Stallman Type: WWW Hyperlink: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/kind-communication.html Instead of using programming to automate WHERE the bug related to org-mode should be routed there is lack of consensus and now we have: ,---- | M-x report-emacs-bug | | M-x org-submit-bug-report | | M-x TeX-submit-bug-report | | M-x lm-report-bug `---- and so on. Emacs is already taking user's data and inserting into the buffer to send email. Why it does not ask user to which part the bug relates? ,---- | - Do you wish to designate mode to which this bug relates? | - Org mode | - TeX mode | - General editing `---- After that question the email can have a tag [org-mode] and upon the tag the maildrop or procmail or other email filter could forward the bug to specific mailing list. Simple really. Standard GNU/Linux and Unix handling of emails. Various mailing lists arrive to my IMAP by being sorted first by the `maildrop' command line tool. Examples: ,---- | if ((/^To:.*emacs\-devel/)) | { | to "./Maildir/.emacs-devel/." | } `---- If email is written to `emacs-devel' please sort it in this folder. In this fashion I can make a filter: - if email has a tag: [org-mode] please send it to THIS-EMAIL-ADDRESS Then emacs-report-bug could rank the user among beginner, intermediate and advance. Then we have the contradiction in description: Is the Org mode part of Emacs? One gets it with Emacs so it is part of Emacs. Then somebody may say it is part of Emacs but somebody will tell it is not part of Emacs. Without listening I can observe that Org is part of Emacs and it says so in the org.el and what is written is what is presented to users and one need not bring these doubts onto user about facts that are clearly there. Those are issues to be discussed beyond users' bugs. I look at those things from a tolerant view point and that issues reported shall better be solved in welcoming manner. Fact is that Org is part of GNU Emacs. ,---- | ;;; org.el --- Outline-based notes management and organizer -*- lexical-binding: t; -*- | | ;; Carstens outline-mode for keeping track of everything. | ;; Copyright (C) 2004-2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc. | | ;; Version: 9.4 | | ;; This file is part of GNU Emacs. `---- Another ways but mail filtering ways of handling bugs that should be forwarded to org mailing list can be very simple: - let us discuss that it is fine to forward such issues to Org mailing list. Issue may arrive to help-gnu-emacs mailing list and could be copied to org mailing list as well by some of participants. Is this alright to do? - people who are subscribed to emacs bugs mailing list could simply forward it to mailing list. In Mutt email reader that is very simple, I can or could just bounce the email or forward email to another email address and rmail and other email readers have same functions. Easy peasy. - some people from Org mailing list may get subscribed to bug tracker and review emails there, when they answer the bug they may include org mailing list. - let us work cooperative and in welcoming manner and without introduction of doubts It is that simple. Side reference from November 2020 that shows that it is legitimate to report Org issues to Emacs bug mailing list, finally Org is part of Emacs: - Org issue does get discussed on Emacs bug mailing list: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01832.html - person reports Org issue to Emacs bug mailing list: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01672.html - another Org issue handled on Emacs bug mailing list: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg02176.html - including Org in Emacs is discussed on Emacs bug mailing list: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01649.html - Org export on Emacs bug mailing list: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg01613.html - Org issue on Emacs bug mailing list: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-11/msg00576.html There will be more coming. Let us think of Emacs users. There are very many that will never even report a bug as people do not like to get confronted with elitism or similar attitudes like "I know it better and you don't know".