From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id EAFMJYlC6l9PeAAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2020 20:39:37 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id iBQfIYlC6l8VcwAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2020 20:39:37 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 143E59403A9 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 2020 20:39:35 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:35242 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ktzIj-0004QC-Pl for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 28 Dec 2020 15:39:33 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56116) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ktzIJ-0004PC-8s; Mon, 28 Dec 2020 15:39:07 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:53113) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ktzIG-0003ho-BS; Mon, 28 Dec 2020 15:39:06 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.210.155.200]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 000000000003C8B8.000000005FEA4264.000025C8; Mon, 28 Dec 2020 13:39:00 -0700 Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 23:37:36 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Subject: Re: Microsoft Excel spreadsheet editing directly from within emacs. Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org References: <69f2606a-105d-75e8-61aa-e4df82c9f445@grinta.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <69f2606a-105d-75e8-61aa-e4df82c9f445@grinta.net> User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.82 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 143E59403A9 X-Spam-Score: -1.82 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: sQROPBNjgNnj * Daniele Nicolodi [2020-12-28 22:56]: > On 28/12/2020 20:36, Jean Louis wrote: > > * Hongyi Zhao [2020-12-28 18:19]: > >> Is it possible for me to edit Microsoft Excel spreadsheet directly > >> from within emacs, especially utilizing the powerful capabilities of > >> orgmode? > > > > You have high expectations but Emacs Org mode does not nearly replace > > the capabilities of a dedicated spreadsheet. > > > > In comparison to all major known spreadsheets Org tables is not > > powerful and not even comparable. > > Without specific details on which functionalities are not supported in > Org tables, this advice is not useful. I just think that 3 references to proper spreadsheets are sparing time of users who think that Org mode is great and powerful wizard of Oz. > There are many use cases in which Org tables are superiors to > spreadsheets I find Org tables useful for small reports. Just as table mode is also useful within Emacs. Org tables are primitives that are not comparable to spreadsheet software. Please show if you have some practical example where it could be superior to spreadsheet. I just do not see how it is comparable as Org tables are simply not a spreadsheet, rather hack in text to visualize something similar to spreadsheet programs. Within Emacs use Org tables and table mode and similar ARE useful. But that does not make them comparable. A toy computer with sounds is useful for a child, but that does not make it comparable to real computer, as analogy. > there are use cases where a dedicated spreadsheet application works > better Without considering the use within Emacs, as for that use Org tables ARE good (but are toy computer), in all other cases a dedicated spreadsheet works better. That would mean if file is not tied to Emacs then in all cases spreadsheet works better. > and there are use cases where a spreadsheet is an horrible solution > but whoever found themselves solving the problem didn't know better > and hammered around till they got a spreadsheet to output what they > wanted. Absolutely yes. One way to replace spreadsheet is to use the database. There are horrible spreadsheet errors in the world. > In my personal experience, in the 80% of the cases where a > spreadsheet has been used, it was the wrong tool for the job. I would like to know how you use it. I think they are useful for simple non-critical applications, let us say expenses reports sent to central database, quotations, invoices, lists of things and their prices and similar. Entry errors and formula errors apply everywhere also in Emacs. Emacs does not make it more useful for anybody who need spreadsheet functionalities as it is a hack, not accessible application. Org mode requires user to be advanced, careful reader of a manual. Spreadsheet is more or less intuitive, Org mode tables are not, so comparison is hard. If we compare it from Emacs Lisp side or formula side, there is nothing that Emacs cannot process in formula. I have myself in the database so much more than just a spreadsheet and Emacs processes anything necessar, just like any other programming language. But that approach from programming side does not make program accessible and usable as that is for small number of users. Spreadsheet users are more or less average or basic computer literates. References on spreadsheets at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spreadsheet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_spreadsheet_software Maybe Org tables shall be included there? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Comparison_of_spreadsheet_software For me, I am not convinced it is a spreadsheet program. >From manual: "The table editor makes use of the Emacs Calc package to implement spreadsheet-like capabilities. It can also evaluate Emacs Lisp forms to derive fields from other fields." Great and we love our horse, but it is not an elephant.