Re: Microsoft Excel spreadsheet editing directly from within emacs.

[Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>]

* Daniele Nicolodi <daniele@grinta.net> [2020-12-28 22:56]:
> On 28/12/2020 20:36, Jean Louis wrote:
> > * Hongyi Zhao <hongyi.zhao@gmail.com> [2020-12-28 18:19]:
> >> Is it possible for me to edit Microsoft Excel spreadsheet directly
> >> from within emacs, especially utilizing the powerful capabilities of
> >> orgmode?
> > 
> > You have high expectations but Emacs Org mode does not nearly replace
> > the capabilities of a dedicated spreadsheet.
> > 
> > In comparison to all major known spreadsheets Org tables is not
> > powerful and not even comparable.
> 
> Without specific details on which functionalities are not supported in
> Org tables, this advice is not useful.

I just think that 3 references to proper spreadsheets are sparing time
of users who think that Org mode is great and powerful wizard of Oz.

> There are many use cases in which Org tables are superiors to
> spreadsheets

I find Org tables useful for small reports. Just as table mode is also
useful within Emacs. Org tables are primitives that are not comparable
to spreadsheet software.

Please show if you have some practical example where it could be
superior to spreadsheet. I just do not see how it is comparable as Org
tables are simply not a spreadsheet, rather hack in text to visualize
something similar to spreadsheet programs.

Within Emacs use Org tables and table mode and similar ARE useful. But
that does not make them comparable. A toy computer with sounds is
useful for a child, but that does not make it comparable to real
computer, as analogy.

> there are use cases where a dedicated spreadsheet application works
> better

Without considering the use within Emacs, as for that use Org tables
ARE good (but are toy computer), in all other cases a dedicated
spreadsheet works better. That would mean if file is not tied to Emacs
then in all cases spreadsheet works better.

> and there are use cases where a spreadsheet is an horrible solution
> but whoever found themselves solving the problem didn't know better
> and hammered around till they got a spreadsheet to output what they
> wanted.

Absolutely yes. One way to replace spreadsheet is to use the
database. There are horrible spreadsheet errors in the world.

> In my personal experience, in the 80% of the cases where a
> spreadsheet has been used, it was the wrong tool for the job.

I would like to know how you use it. I think they are useful for
simple non-critical applications, let us say expenses reports sent to
central database, quotations, invoices, lists of things and their
prices and similar. Entry errors and formula errors apply everywhere
also in Emacs. Emacs does not make it more useful for anybody who need
spreadsheet functionalities as it is a hack, not accessible
application. Org mode requires user to be advanced, careful reader of
a manual. Spreadsheet is more or less intuitive, Org mode tables are
not, so comparison is hard.

If we compare it from Emacs Lisp side or formula side, there is
nothing that Emacs cannot process in formula. I have myself in the
database so much more than just a spreadsheet and Emacs processes
anything necessar, just like any other programming language. But that
approach from programming side does not make program accessible and
usable as that is for small number of users.

Spreadsheet users are more or less average or basic computer
literates. 

References on spreadsheets at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spreadsheet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_spreadsheet_software

Maybe Org tables shall be included there?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Comparison_of_spreadsheet_software

For me, I am not convinced it is a spreadsheet program.

From manual:

"The table editor makes use of the Emacs Calc package to implement
spreadsheet-like capabilities.  It can also evaluate Emacs Lisp forms
to derive fields from other fields."

Great and we love our horse, but it is not an elephant.