From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:58f0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms8.migadu.com with LMTPS id SHNoO1f1wmW2VgEAe85BDQ:P1 (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 07 Feb 2024 04:13:28 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:58f0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2.migadu.com with LMTPS id SHNoO1f1wmW2VgEAe85BDQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 07 Feb 2024 04:13:28 +0100 X-Envelope-To: larch@yhetil.org Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=j+fBnOIz; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1707275607; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=/MhyH8aCowe8nCJFfVifObcTjDIKq4En94elSj0oQ7E=; b=M/Z0BecESgpXfzEGtKAp8lPuw3s9pvwk0PceKMwivg0HBmPklHP8QXf92U/BTU+Ct0Umju BAg6ueMJ4AwSkDkjBMf/uMx+3zJG+p4sBwGMYNx96m6Gnkl31QmgrHY0dK09BoDcPZJc6l 7nohnmiDVFj+/CQB7QCQAAeDg8Z8cqGHW6uPZ2ocGZLCtd7YPngCrb/39KVHzd70Cjmf/W SjPKjyM+qWD25E2gIiivyUICqjzVhpry7JSHqYpB/hIXqaPpNg2wB3CuUIOqkL2XXPmthD Aut1A+ghmG9ZncbViybQUJVVjLefdGe1oiWzLpErOVc30PnVozOEbKeWmjd9Ug== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=j+fBnOIz; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1707275607; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=ASPtqmC6hdYtCpfo5er+qfuC3+Q+7GI/vVoLaboAup80M0E4CrusVtuv2axm8k4yhYErae bEj+ulJla4as4bnO6rqc8wseFPYjk4CDH1p6sgJbCfuEheVVoe4xEzZ0mIdnte4HwV7eka zsHbQdAvHTWM7TMUQ1wso2NSauhWytUoELJBRFvt/CwGF8R2eOyU8AukQwqfDy+nuL+MV2 gOliDcDShGMt0gw6PAkUWU3hgNKkqqlsZwf6sjG2FGC/RTI8XleQjx93YLNSmEeta25yM2 dAY02SHzB3E8O/dw99wVOg+6UspHoDwUKx+OeV8h3agXASt45vkmdgBnt7JqmQ== Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAFA93A0DC for ; Wed, 7 Feb 2024 04:13:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rXYMP-0003u5-F9; Tue, 06 Feb 2024 22:12:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rXYMO-0003ts-5S; Tue, 06 Feb 2024 22:12:28 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rXYMM-0004iA-Sw; Tue, 06 Feb 2024 22:12:26 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=/MhyH8aCowe8nCJFfVifObcTjDIKq4En94elSj0oQ7E=; b=j+fBnOIze2iM LrPEYSUoePpZBhmQtexpJR5u033GnEtcFD1yeyNTax+9ZGSaZAjDNFaKSX1PumNeTdu0EKHdjun3q V0MaJvOVebVi7T3237QuP/oZqT2JzNekyztY9/mzacN1vFzVJt22W7Hrm0YRJW/kAaKJJfsAp8goQ DPHwhlWSNewzlMC+9yIYRnGxTSziE2tL3usgar0c3QPCiArSVi5+nCItqmaBGOwKEpgfUA2JshqTC OC9nBcuZ1Yw/M7z3qZx0Qi4jKAuGprYxu8PlZ/hYGuzjlG3d5qzFpf4ByKuOOr6/j41l1MEbY44jK ugU2OvRhDAkCvBE9Ta+JuQ==; Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rXYML-0000cc-U8; Tue, 06 Feb 2024 22:12:26 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 From: Richard Stallman To: Jean-Christophe Helary Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (message from Jean-Christophe Helary on Thu, 04 Jan 2024 12:19:21 +0000) Subject: Re: Translation of the Org mode manual (was: Translation of manuals (was: SES manual French translation)) References: <5D3D13BC-E621-4C40-88D7-3E5805F631AB@traductaire-libre.org> <83sf3fzvk4.fsf@gnu.org> <835y0azhvo.fsf@gnu.org> <83wmsqy14p.fsf@gnu.org> <3E7CF23D-CE62-4581-80D6-E6266CEE4DF5@traductaire-libre.org> <877ckp72ns.fsf@localhost> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2024 22:12:25 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.41 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: DAFA93A0DC X-Spam-Score: -9.41 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx11.migadu.com X-TUID: +6VyOHlLZR1V [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > 1. Org mode manual itself, just like the other Emacs manuals may need to > be translated. However, Org mode manual source is written in Org mode > format, not texi. It is just transformed to texi as one of the export > options. Using Org format for the source of a document, and converting it to texi for processing (for instance, through TeX) would be a fine method to use, if it worked. But it doesn't actually work. The problem is that it cannot work, given Org format as it exists now. It cannot properly represent manuals that use the GNU standard style because it does not have ways to represent all the distinctions that are needed. Texinfo implements semantic markup, and is designed for multiple output formats, including Info, HTML, and DVI (whence also PDF). Two different markup constructs that look the same in one output format may look different in another. All these design decisions were the result of long thought. For instance, italic face can be the result of @dfn, @var, @emph, @cite and @i. Each of them has a meaning -- which one to use is not a matter of taste. @cite is used around the title of a book. @dfn is used around the first use of a term, to say it is being defined. @emph is used to indicate emphasis. @var is used around a metasyntactic variable. @i means "use italic for this" and does not say why. It is a escape for situations that Texinfo has no specific way to describe. These five commands produce the same output in DVI/PDF, but different output in Info. I think there must be 15 different Texinfo commands to generate fixed-width bold text in DVI/PDF. To represent a manual source in Org format and do the job right is not possible with Org format as it is now. To make it possible requires extending Org format so it can make all the distinctions Texinfo can make. I would like Org format to be extended in this way. Texinfo format is often misunderstood. People write GNU manuals without knowing of all these constructs, so they use the wrong construct. If Org format were extended to do _the whole job_, we could convert all manuals to Org format once and for all. A few years ago I raised this idea, but nobody wanted to work on it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)